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Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

By Jeralyn, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 12:47:27 PM EST
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Stanley Tookie Williams' life is hanging in the balance. The Crips founder has been on death row for 24 years. While in jail, he became an anti-gang activist, wrote children's books and was nominated by a member of the Swiss Parliament for the Nobel Prize. Snoop Dogg is rounding up support for Tookie who is scheduled to be killed on December 13.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is considering a clemency petition to spare his life. If granted, he would remain in prison for the rest of his life, where he could continue his good works. He just wouldn't be killed.

Here is a fact sheet on Tookie's case (pdf). There is still time for you to sign a petition to Gov. Arnold. Or, check here for a sample letter to fax.

Tell the Governor to choose life.

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    • Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams | 109 comments (109 topical)
    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    Well and concisely said K-dog. Patrick, please elaborate.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is considering a clemency petition to spare his life.
    At least he'll get that; consideration. Which is more than he would get in other places.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    OK, he was nominated for, but has not recieved, a Nobel Peace Prize. That suggests he's less of a nice guy than Yasir Arafat. That said, if clemency has any legit place in our legal system, then sparing somebody who actively and consistently tries to make the world a better place (not in the crazy, Unibomber, kind of way) is the right place for it.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#6)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    Hmmm.
    "While in jail, he became an anti-gang activist, wrote children's books and was nominated by a member of the Swiss Parliament for the Nobel Prize."
    Please, Henry Kissinger has been nominated for a Nobel Prize - Peace Prize at that. Big deal. I'm not a fan of those who become 'nice guys' whilst in prison & yet refrain from accepting responsibility for what their behavior and actions.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#1)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    This is a chance for society to prove we are better than vengeful gangbangers. Are we?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#2)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    So is it OK if he still orders hits from prison? Even if he's now a "nice" guy.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Unfortunately, Schwarzenegger's past decisions in clemency processes are not encouraging for Tookie:
    On June 29, 1967 ... Reagan commuted the death sentence of Calvin Thomas to life in prison, when medical tests conducted after Thomas's trial revealed significant brain damage. [in January 2005] Schwarzenegger refused to stop the execution of Donald Beardslee, another brain-damaged death-row inmate. ... During the original trial, the prosecutor told the jury that Beardslee was "not suffering from any mental disorder." Faced with the evidence that this was not true, Schwarzenegger claimed that, nevertheless, Beardslee knew what he was doing when he participated in a brutal double murder in 1981. But Dr. Ruben Gur, a leading expert on brain damage from the University of Pennsylvania, who examined Beardslee, wrote: "The profound, likely lifelong damage to the right hemisphere of Mr. Beardslee's brain made him unable to correctly process and contextualize information."... In Beardslee's case, Schwarzenegger dismissed not only his brain damage, but also his exemplary behavior as a prisoner for over 20 years, which led former San Quentin Warden Daniel Vasquez to write an unprecedented letter on Beardslee's behalf. ... To make matters worse, Beardslee was executed just as the state senate has set up a new commission to study flaws in the death penalty process.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#8)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    accomplished.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Anyone in the appropriate field can nominate someone for the Nobel Peace Prize. Stalin, Hitler and Molotov were all nominated, heck Arafat won it. This is one reason that the Nobel has become a joke. Jimmy Carter is another one. Look it, the guy gunned down a bunch of innocent people that we know about, how many did he kill that we don't know about? Would he have mellowed as much if he was never caught or would he have killed more and still be running a crime syndicate? The man is a psychopath who created one of the worst gangs in the recent past, a gang that has corrupted many young kids and started them on thier life of crime and eventual incarceration. So 'Snoop Dog' is rallying around for Tookie's life. So what's going on, Snoop got a new CD coming out soon? Is he running out of college girls to go wild? Smoking some really strong herb? If anyone deserves to be put to death for his crimes it is this piece of human trash. If he's such a tough guy why does he need of a gallows redemption? He is a coward that destroyed innocent human beings for no good reason and deserves to be put to death. If he was half the man he thought he was he'd face his fate with dignity. But he is less than a man.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#10)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Is human redemption possible in this life? If not, who among us is without need of redemption to a degree; and then what of us, our civilization, and our souls? Yes, human redemption is our best hope.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ambiorix on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Meanwhile in Belgium: From the answer of a question in parliament in 2001 on the release on parole of condemned to a life sentence: The figures below express the average duration of the detention of condemned to a life sentence, having profited from a release on parole in the year indicated in opposite: 1980: 5964 days (16 years en 7 months) 1981: 3809 days (10 years en 4 months) 1982: 4065 days (11 years en 1 maand) 1983: 4005 days (10 years en 11 months) 1984: 3516 days (9 years en 7 months) 1985: 4955 days (13 years en 6 months) 1986: 5876 days (16 years en 1 maand) 1987: 4443 days (12 years en 1 maand) 1988: 5113 days (13 years en 11 months) 1989: 4400 days (12 years) 1990: 4668 days (12 years en 9 months) 1991: 3774 days (10 years en 3 months) 1992: 4119 days (11 years en 3 months) Sentencing a person to a life detention without parole is considered inhumane in Belgian Justice, nor is an eye for an eye seen as Justice. Link (in French)

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Tookie has not shown contrition for his acts. I would not grant clemency based upon this fact alone. If we are to adopt legal standards from other countries, could we please start with "loser pays" in civil suits?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    So Flemish justice is less than it should be. To bad Tookie didn't set up shop in Belgium he would have fit right in.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Lora Owens on FNC TV right now with Kasich. Her stepson was killed by Tookie. She says all the concerned Hollywood celebs haven't contacted her to find out her side of the story. She says Tookie shot her son in the back. "Tookie Williams hasn't changed any. He just has a different class of people speaking for him." Lora Owens I'm safely predicting Christmas in Hell for Mr. Williams.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#15)
    by oldtree on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    1 if he still runs the gang from prison..... 2 and write children's books..... 3 and killed people, committed robbery that killed... 4 if he is anti gang work is powerful, but he runs the gang? what is to think about, really?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#16)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Clearly, the people advocating for the execution of this person are expressing the desire for revenge, pure and simple. The question is, what does killing him accomplish, other than revenge? Deterrence? No. There will continue to be gang murders regardless of whether he lives or dies. Some people mention the possibility that he might continue to run his gang from inside prison: (a) that would be the fault of the prison system. Those people are saying that he should be killed because the prison system is deficient. (b) Even if he were killed for that reason, the gang would not shut down. A different leader would take over, outside prison. So nothing would be accomplished. As soon as you drop the lust for blood and start reasoning, the death penalty makes no sense.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Hey, revenge works just fine for me. If some scum kills me while I'm working in a convenience store, I hope that my society will extract revenge. Jimbo

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:20 PM EST
    Oh, and one more thing, if I am to read the Belgian post correctly, then even life without parole is inhumane. Now, are the pro-criminals conceding this point? Are they beginning with capital punishment en route to getting rid of life with no possibility of parole? Just wondering. Jimbo

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Let's ask his victims if he deserves clemency. Wait a minute, they are still dead.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#20)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    i am against his execution solely on moral grounds. i take offense at the notion of the state committing murder in my name. life without parole serves the cause of justice, if that's what we're actually looking for. if, on the other hand, we seek only revenge, than we've abdicated the mantle of a civilized society. you can't have it both ways. in either event, let's at least be honest with ourselves, and stop all this nonsense about deterrence, etc. it's great that mr. williams seems to have matured, from the street thug he was, to a better human being. that doesn't negate the heinous nature of his crimes, or obviate the necessity of him paying for them, behind bars, for the rest of his natural life.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Revenge? Perhaps. Deserved punishment? Yes definately. How is the world a better place as long as Tookie is alive? He had less then any concern for the people he murdered and those that he lead into a life of crime and corruption and he committed those crimes in a capital punishment state. 'Snoop Dog's endorsement is just one more reason that Tookie should be put down. Call it revenge, call it justice, but pleading this pyschopath's calling for mercy is justice delayed. Did his victims get an appeal? Would society be better if he lived? If so, how? If society doesn't benefit from extermination of known killers then I guess you would argue that putting down a rabid dog is animal cruelty and there is no benefit to society. Now if that dog wrote a children's book about rabidity.... Somehow your arguement is driven by ideology and not experience. Living in the suburbs will do that to you.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ambiorix on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Jimbo said: So Flemish justice is less than it should be I just found a table from a 1998 report from the British Government, comparing London with 19 European and 9 North American cities link to table On top of the table Washington DC   69.3 murders per 100.000 of population Philadephia   27.4 Los Angeles   22.8 Moscow   18.1 New York   16.8 Amsterdam   7.7 Paris   3.3 London   2.1 Brussels   0.4 = 4 murders per 1.000.000 of population Yes Jimbo, an humane juridical system really brings out the worst in people

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Ambriorix, Its Jimcee, not Jimbo but that is OK. I wasn't infering that your judicial system was less than perfect but if you had to deal with the likes of the 'Tookies' in your society you would find that life in prison would be a soft sentence. You live in a lovely country (great ale and architecture) but it is too small to relate to the US as far as penal systems are concerned. Using your system, the serial killer Ted Bundy would be out by now if he was Flemish. In the US he is dead by the states hand. Is that a bad thing? if so please explain.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    How is the world a better place as long as Tookie is alive? Geezus, are we now holding this standard to human beings? What a ridiculous and impossible standard to live up to for MANY people, not just convicted criminals. My grandmother is one of the most despicable, mean, and cold-hearted people on the earth just because she IS, not because she's ever committed a criminal act of any kind, and if you ask how the world is better off with her in it, I'd say it isn't. With a standard like that, she'd obviously be a waste of space and valuable oxygen. But should she DIE because of that? I know what you're trying to do with a question like that, but it's a little dangerous (okay, VERY dangerous) when society gets to place values on certain people's lives and say who should live or die based on whether "the world is better off with them in it or out of it". Many wars and genocides have been started and excused because one group of people got to decide whether another one is "worthy" of living on our planet.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    So your Grandma murdered a bunch of innocent people like Tookie or you're just making up some really dumb rhetorical story for arguement sake. Or of course your Grandmother may be a really nasty grandm*ther-f*cker. But somehow I think your just being silly.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    quick poll here: (TL loves polls) Of those who believe executions are cruel and inhumane, etc, is life without parole also cruel and inhumane, etc? I could live (har!) with life without parole setences at hard labor vice executions if it would indeed mean that. I have a hunch. And I also have a hunch that progessives would like to limit prison setences no matter how heinous the crime.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#27)
    by John Mann on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Wile E asked:
    Of those who believe executions are cruel and inhumane, etc, is life without parole also cruel and inhumane, etc?
    OK, I'll bite: I believe that both options are inhumane, but if forced to make a choice on behalf of society, I would pick the latter for a couple reasons. First, I believe the death penalty puts every single person in jeopardy because mistakes can be, and are made. Second, life in prison is inhumane. Just imagine it. The only good thing about the second option is that an innocent person won't be put to death at the hands of the government, while someone who's guilty has forfeited his (or her) right to live as a normal human being and must lie in the bed he (or she) made. It's really a Hobson's Choice but I have trouble coming up with alternatives. The death penalty is wrong - period.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#28)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    I have a hunch that regressives would dearly love for crucifixion to make a comeback. Perhaps a lottery to see who gets to pound the nails. Maybe they can sell spilt blood on the side. Wile, the attraction of LWOP is that it at least offers the state a chance to not murder the wrong person. Of course, if you, like so many other regressives out there are comfortable with the probability that innocents have been executed (which qualifies as murder 1 in my book)then go right ahead banging the drum of biblical style punishments. As far as this character goes? If he indeed is running his gang from within the prison walls, a claim which those who have made have not backed up BTW, than we need to re-evaluate how that is being done. Killing him is not the answer to the root cause of the problem. It is, however, a means to satidfy the bloodlust of people who have in no way been directly harmed by his activities...

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    I oppose the death penalty, period. it's morbid retribution that the state would exterminate undesired individuals.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    How is the world a better place as long as Tookie is alive?
    The world is a better place when society proves itself to be better than Williams. The world is a better place when the state doesn't have the right to kill, because from time to time the state will kill innocent men.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#31)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    For those who think that he may be ordering hits from the inside, that is just not logical. Why would someone order hits from the inside and participate in gang activity while fighting against gang involvement? I'm sure that after 20 some odd years in prison he has no reason to order any hits. As for this:
    How is the world a better place as long as Tookie is alive?
    As long as he keeps writing literature that keeps kids off the streets, the world is a better place. On the other hand, the message that we may be sending to our youth by reducing his sentence to LWOP is that they can do what they want and when they get caught, just write a bunch of books in your free time in prison to get your sentence reduced. It's a tough debate. However, you have to weigh the bad vs. the good. In this case, we're sure that the guy has done some wrong in the past and owes society. If he continues to live in prison and do the good of writing and working to keep people out of gangs, he is trying to make a positive contribution to our society. With his death, he can no longer positively contribute anything. In this particular instance, I think that to allow him to live will give him a chance to benefit the society more than his death ever could. As long as he continues to repay his debt to society by fighting against gang involvement, he will send a much better message to our youth than killing him would.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#32)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    The world is a better place when society proves itself to be better than Williams.
    So killing a man after a jury finds him guilty of knowingly killing innocents, plus however many appeals, is literally as bad as killing innocents?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    In my opinion roy, there is little difference. You don't prove killing is wrong by killing.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Well said, kdog... Who was it that said "an eye for an eye eventually leaves the whole world blind"?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#35)
    by oldtree on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    why would anyone want to save such a dirtbag? to protect morality, such nonsense? this is a killer that is still operational, actively killing still. the duty of humanity would be to be rid of such a waste of space, we don't have room on this planet for people that purposefully kill others for profit. and those of you the profess morality, what a sad subjective excuse for supporting your point of view. remember folks, we are just animals

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Good Lord, have you read the letters we're supposed to fax to Arnold?! Here's a particularly humerous snippet: "Executing Mr Williams would be like executing Louis Pasteur or Florence Nightingale." I am ROTFLMFAO.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#37)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    In my opinion roy, there is little difference.
    Morality is tricky. I can't say you're objectively wrong. But the families of Williams's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th victims will not be comforted by your belief that he maxed out on evilness on the 1st killing. But then there's the marginal rate of evilness. Killing innocents is evil, but Williams isn't going to do that any more because he's in prison (setting aside unproven claims about ordering hits). So he's not increasing the amount of evil in the world. If killing Williams is even a little bit evil (debatable), then doing it does increase the amount of evil in the world.
    You don't prove killing is wrong by killing.
    Nobody has made that claim. Where'd you get that?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    "Killing innocents is evil, but Williams isn't going to do that any more because he's in prison" Interesting comment and I'm not entirely sure what it means. Setting aside unproven claims about ordering hits (as you said), are you saying he can't kill anymore because he's in prison, or he can't kill innocents anymore because he's in prison? Or are you saying something else?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Bad wording on my part, roy. Obviously, there is no need to "prove" killing is wrong, it is an obvious truth. Does Williams deserve to die? Depends on who you ask. Family of victims would say yes, a former gangbanger he helped rehabilitate would say no. My anti-death penalty stance isn't so much moral, but practical. It is undeniable that the state will make a mistake and kill an innocent man. Bottom line, I can't live with that. Life without parole protects society, and leaves the wrongly convicted the chance to be exonerated. I can live with the individual having the power to commit murder, that is unavoidable physical reality on planet earth. I can't live with a faceless, lifeless bueracracy having that same power...too scary.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#40)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Death penalty is just wrong. Life in prison is horrible. And yes, I advocate life in prison without parole. I didn't say I *liked* murderers.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#41)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    SUO, My clarification is about to be longer than the original post...
    ...are you saying he can't kill anymore because he's in prison, or he can't kill innocents anymore because he's in prison? Or are you saying something else?
    I assumed the latter and meant to say the former. It's since occurred to me that neither is strictly true. Prisons are violent places, so Williams probably can still kill. And some people in prison are innocent, so he probably can still kill innocents. But based on what we know (using convictions as the standard for knowing) of his behavior in prison, I conclude he won't be killing people any more. Nor breaking other laws. Thus "he's not increasing the amount of evil in the world.". If that's correct, it sets a tough standard for not being worse than Williams. A shoplifter is worse than Williams because the shoplifter is increasing the evil in the world, whereas Williams is not. That's counterintuitive, and makes me think I've gone wrong somewhere.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#42)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    If he has reformed his ways, then LW/OP is a better option in this case. His activity in stemming gang activity (am taking the argument at face value... which may be a mistake here) is enough of a mitigating circumstance to shift the balance from death to LWOP... as long as the state can be reasonably sure he will not kill again directly or indirectly by ordering a hit. For those who say both death and LW/OP should not be used, what would you do? Life with parole seems to be more harsh than LW/OP, not only does it allow for the the guilty to be released after a demonstrated willingness to kill another, but it releases them late in life, with minimal job skills, and a huge stigma attached to them, often at or near the time of failing health. So they go from deplorable conditions, to conditions nearly as bad, only now they have to fend for themselves, and figure out where their next meal is coming from, how to care for their failing kidney/liver/heart/whatever, and they have to do so against the backdrop of minimal job skills and a scarlet M. What would those who say LW/OP should not be used do?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:21 PM EST
    Fair enough roy. We should not expect to gain rewards from others for doing what's expected of us as a member of society - for doing what's right. Florence Nightin...excuse me, Tookie the 4-time murderer, shouldn't be rewarded for reforming, ie., not killing anyone in prison. Not killing anyone is the expected behavior, not something you do for extra-credit. He will meet his deserved fate knowing that he did some good in this world, knowing that he did some right.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    Al – In “hunter gatherer” societies, and other less advanced societies through out history, revenge existed, and was the trigger for blood feuds and wars that killed many innocents. As man advanced, the state stepped into to administer justice. By the state executing the killer, the causes of blood feuds were reduced and civilization was advanced. I am not a fan of capital punishment because the system is imperfect. But when you have a cut and dried, no doubt about it, situation, revenge is certainly a strong argument for execution.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#45)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    The "it's better than hunter-gatherer societies" argument stop being persuasive 10,000 years ago.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#46)
    by karen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    Written by Sarcastic: Here's a particularly humerous snippet: "Executing Mr Williams would be like executing Louis Pasteur or Florence Nightingale." I am ROTFLMFAO. ---------------------------- I have serious doubts as to the common sense of someone who would send such a message to the guv. "Tookie" is a convicted killer and his punishment is to be meted out by the proper authority. This is NOT about revenge, but about justice.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    We have laws...like them or not...and these laws were made to protect the populace. In Illinois, there is a death penalty.... so...knowing that, if I kill someone, there is a chance I could get that sentence... Bottom line? Don't kill anybody! It is, however, a means to satidfy the bloodlust of people who have in no way been directly harmed by his activities... I disagree... the fact he is a founder of the crips effects many people in a very negative way! I find it very amusing that many criminals find God or some other way if convincing the rest of us that they are now better people and can be trusted. If I was on death row you bet your sweet ass I'd find God...or at least try to convince you I did. So, what is even more amusing is how many of you fall for this ploy.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:24 PM EST
    this 1's for "jimcee" i dont kno about you, but i believe in God...not "a God", but in "the God", ok?...good...now, God wrote the Bible, right?..and in the Bible, it clearly states that every single human being on the face of this earth (and,ofcourse, that includes me and you) is created in His image (Genesis 1:27), and that every single one of us (again, me and you) is equal, no matter what any of us has done, or will do...therefore, you have no right to call anyone, regardless of their past actions, human trash, for three reasons.....1, everyone is made "in the image of God"(Genesis 1:27, so if you call Stanley Williams trash, then you're calling God trash, two, God says "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3), implying that you should not talk about some one elses wrong doings while you yourself have sinned, and 3, that my God doesn't make any trash

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:26 PM EST
    I think and everyone has the right to there own opinion. But i think tookie should be let out. yeah he should pay for his crimes human's should not kill other human's, but you see tookie knows he did wrong and is paying the crime for it, but you got to admit the he is teaching other youths not to become like him or do the crap he did... yeah tookie should get death sentence but, you don't take something negative out of something negative... tookie does regret what he did but it is not us who is suppose to punish him or judge him for it, when he dies god will punish tookie for the wrong he did...

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    Just a clarification for those who don't want "murder" of Tookie committed in their name. The moral issue here is a little hazy. The bible says "Thou shalt not murder" as opposed to the more popular interpretation of "thou shalt not kill." Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of life. The death penalty is legal, and therefore is NOT MURDER. Furthermore, if you are going to use the bible to create an anti-death penalty moral issue...you should remember that capital punishment WAS THE LAW OF THE LAND when the ten commandments were written...hmmmm, they must not have seen that as dupilicitous. Tookie owes his debt to society. It is not blood lust, and it does not make us the same as him, or others who would commit murder. The victims of Tookie Williams never had a trial, never had appeals, never HAD A CHANCE. Our law requires us to hold him accountable. John.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    The death of Stanley Williams will send a message of despair and will do no good for all the troubled people here in the US, as you can see in the criminal statistics - Deterence is not making a come back prior to now - how would this impact the future within our youth??? They have finally found someone that is on that same level, it needs to be left this way. GRANT CLEMENCY!! Stan is an inspiration to many detered youth in this country!! We need this POSITIVE IMPACT!! FURTHERMORE: THE GRANTING RELIEF OF STANLEY 'TOOKIE' WILLIAMS BY THE GOVERNER WOULD PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR POSITIVE RESULTS BY YOUNG POTEINTIAL VIOLATORS - THAN ANY DETERENCE WHICH WOULD BE GATHERED BY THE DEATH SENTENCE, IF IMPOSED. CLEMENCY NEEDS TO BE GRANTED!!!!

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    Yeah right, what about the despair of the four people & that Tookie murdered? What about the pain and suffering those four people's families have had to endure? What if it were your husband or family that was the one who got snuffed out for some drug money? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Kill four people; Yen-I Yang, a 65-year-old motel owner, his wife, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 62, and daughter, Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 42, and Albert Owens, 26-year-old, 7-11 clerk and what does you expect to happen? Do the crime, pay the price.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    Did the people Tookie shot get a chance for clemency? Even if they asked for it, Tookie didn't give it to them. Is his life worth more than theirs were?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Jeremy- Actually, it IS our job to judge and punish Tookie for what he did. Not us individually, but us as a society. Without laws, there would be chaos. As far as tookie taking responsibility for what he did...my understanding is that he HAS NOT. Hmmmm...doesn't sound like remorse to me. Even if he IS remorseful, and admits to the cold-blooded killing of his victims, he should not be excused because he has done some good things. He still owes his debt to society...the bad he put out in the world still far outweighs any good he has done...the crips are still going strong...still killing and committing violent crimes. John.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    As bad as it sounds, I truly enjoy when an execution date is set in a death penalty case. I do so because: It shows the greatness of living in a country where we get to express our opinions and protest for or against those opinions without fear of repurcussions. Here is my opinion: The death penalty does not dissuade individuals from committing criminal acts, nor does life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Therefore, it is a moot point to discuss the possibility that one is "better" than the other. Murder will happen either way, and there is no way to be certain more murders will occur with one in place rather than the other. We can only make judgements. We halted the death penalty for nearly ten years. Murder rates were not affected drastically, and it was reinstated in most states for a reason. That reason is the majority of citizens wanted it reinstated. Also, what a man/woman does to improve society or how he/she has changed while on death row SHOULD have no bearing on a state's decision to execute him/her. In the case of Stanley Williams, he was tried, convicted and sentenced to death by a jury of his peers (I know what some of you against the death penalty are thinking about when I say "peers" and I'll get to that in the next paragraph). At the moment of his sentencing, according to our laws, Williams lost the right to be rehabilitated. Death Row does not exist for the purpose of rehabilitation like the rest of the prison system. It exists solely to house criminals while their appeals get exhausted. Back to the topic of "peers". Williams' jury consisted of one latino, one filipino and 10 white people. Is this representative of Mr. William's peers? Over 25 years of appeals ranging from the California Court of Appeals to the Supreme Court of the United States have found that it was. Besides, to argue this point is not to argue over whether Williams deserves to die at the hands of the California Department of Corrections, but in fact whether he deserves a new trial to determine guilt or innocence of the crimes he has been convicted of. His appeals found no evidence for this. A flaw in the system? Perhaps. I admit to the fact the system is not perfect, because it was created by humans. Humans do have flaws. However, a lot of time and care (Much more time and care than any of us has put into our opinions on this matter...Roughly 200+ years in fact) has been dedicated to creating the best system possible. Religion SHOULD also play no part in deciding whether a convict should be executed. Separation of Church and State is a wise rationale, since practically every Genocide in recorded history had their roots in religion. Simply put...It's the LAW. Williams should die for his crimes on December 13, 2005. And my final opinion: Personally...I'm opposed to the death penalty.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#56)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Simply put...It's the LAW. Williams should die for his crimes on December 13, 2005.
    It's also the law that the governor has the option to grant clemency. Why stick to the killing people part of the law, and discard the not killing them part?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    I also personally feel that a governor having the sole power of final say over life and death is silly. What? One person is going to find something in the case during the brief time it is in front of him/her that dozens hadn't seen over years? Gimme a break. I know I wouldn't want my life resting on a political agenda. But...It is the law.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    Thanks for that Roy. I caught that fact I hadn't mentioned it too, and was writing my next post while you posted yours.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Our prisons are called correctional facilities and the inmates are sent there to reform themselves. Tookie Williams has reformed himself and has tryed to stop gang violence and to prevent kids from finding their way into the gangs. Some argue that he is a menace because he has killed four people, while people we admire such as ALBERT EINSTEIN have developed bombs that took the lives of thousands of innocent people. He did not form the crips knowing that they would cause the deaths of hundreds of people but to provide protections for himself. His motive was not to kill but for protection from the other gangs. Besides what would killing him do? All it would do is just tell those that have taken the wrong road that reforming does nothing for you and that reforming your life will not have any impact on anyone.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    Our prisons are called correctional facilities and the inmates are sent there to reform themselves. Tookie Williams has reformed himself and has tryed to stop gang violence and to prevent kids from finding their way into the gangs. Some argue that he is a menace because he has killed four people, while people we admire such as ALBERT EINSTEIN have developed bombs that took the lives of thousands of innocent people. He did not form the crips knowing that they would cause the deaths of hundreds of people but to provide protections for himself. His motive was not to kill but for protection from the other gangs. Besides what would killing him do? All it would do is just tell those that have taken the wrong road that reforming does nothing for you and that reforming your life will not have any impact on anyone.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    let's face facts, the guy deserves it. Peace and let this be a reminder that one should not kill.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    for those of you who know nothing about Tookie Williams other than that he has killed four people go to and read countdown to a leal lynching and then go watch the movie REDEMPTION.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    The Tookie that thousands are fighting to keep from a December 13 date with the executioner is not the same Tookie that decades ago wanted to smash everyone. Yet there are still thousands like him that do. A very much alive Tookie who understands their anger and alienation could help lesson their numbers. While I do not unequivocally and in all cases oppose capital punishment (Eichmann and Hannibal Lechter come to mind) it is painfully clear that the justice system in place in America is deeply, deeply flawed, especially with respect to the adminitration of capital punishment. Williams, who has never admitted his guilt, was tried by an all white jury within a system which is notoriously unfair to blacks and the underprivileged. “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter” Martin Luther King Jr. http://www.tookie.com/brady_discovery_motion.pdf GET INVOLVED: http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/events.html http://www.savetookie.org http://www.nodeathpenalty.org Tookie's a special case and worthy of our attention - everyone's attention. It's not that he shouldn't be killed. Of course he shouldn't. It's not that he's innocent (by any definition). It's not that he's been nominated for Nobel Prizes and praised by President Bush (who took it back when he learned Tookie was on death row). Those things make for a dramatic story line and lend some interest to his tale, but they don't make him so special that Ohioans and everyone else should be working for his clemency. What sets Tookie apart is that there's actually a chance that he'll get clemency without any serious debate aover whether he was guilty. Tookie Williams just might get clemency simply because he's a better guy now than he was when he went to prison. We're not talking error correction here - the governor being asked to do a job the courts should have done but didn't. We're talking simple mercy. If you study the history of the death penalty, you'll see that clemency has historically been an act of grace. But that conception of clemency died with the apparently widespread populatiry of state killing. Governors no longer show mercy - it's a sign of weakness or something and means they won't be reelected (or so goes the gubernatorial campaign wisdom). About the only way to get clemency today (and it's mighty rare) is to convince the media and the public (and then the governor) that there was a horrible mistake at trial and that if you're not spared you'll be the dead innocent guy we've all been looking for. And then there's Tookie. He might just, single-handedly, demonstrate that governor can do the right thing, can grant clemency not to fix a mistake but to save a life, and that the governor can do it without seeming like a wimp and without losing votes. Hell, Arnold 's ratings are so low that doing the right thing might even gain him some votes. And wouldn't that be something. VIEW THIS TOO: (interesting.....) http://www.ccadp.org

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    This comment is for "little drummer boy" First of all God didn't write the Bible you imbicle, know what you are talking about before you speak and that will limit the amount of embarassment you will endure in life. And the 11-27-2005 post by "jeremy" states that he thinks Stan should be let out---is that out of the execution sentence or OUT period? You can't be that foolish, but who am I to judge, maybe you are just being sarcastic, however being clear in a debate, arguement, or even an opinion should be a must. Now on the subject of Stan Williams---I'm not necessarily opposed to, or for the death penalty, I do however think that the critera for such punishment in the state the crime was commited has clearly been met by Stan. He was convicted and sentenced by a jury(maybe not of his peers, but that's not a bad thing)There have been 20 + years for someone to come forward or for the defense to present new evidence to assist in all the appeal efforts and nothing has been convincing enough to persuade an appeals court to give this man a new trial, only some ethical issues that question the prosecutions tactics, who cares that he was referred to as animal, truth hurts I guess.The probable reason he's tagged with only 4 murders is because they are the only ones he could be identified in or that he boasted about. Granted the states witnesses weren't the best in the world, but the old saying "birds of a feather flock together" turns out to be true more often than not, and one man's loss IS another man's gain. If I'm sitting in a jail cell with some jackass that admits to killing 4 people you can bet your rear end that I'm singing like a canary especially if it's going to lessen or make my charges disappear, it's human nature. Then there's this remorse issue, he shows none, but of course he didn't do anything wrong so why take acceptance and be remorsful, now I get it.Yea right, the stubborn bastard is going to stick to his story isn't he. There is some speculation that Stan might be running the gangs from the inside--I highly doubt it, but who knows and who cares, cut him off entirely from the outside world and that will resolve itself, now he can't contribute to society so what's the sense of keeping him around? Ah to let him write his books--- in solitary confinement only. I don't see how he has earned the right to be addressed as Sir or Mr. as I have read in a few of these posts, he lost all those rights when a jury convicted him of murdering 4 innocent people, he's merely a number in the California penal system a punk a thug. He may be top dog in prison, but that's it. To juice or not to juice, not my call nor do I even care one way or the other, he'll never see the light of day outside prison ever! I have learned one thing after all these years of talking with death row inmates, the longer they are inside the more likely they are to fight death. No matter how bad the incarcerated life is in the beginning acceptance and adjustments finally win out and the desire to go on living becomes more important. Some think the ultimate punishment is death, others think it's LWOP, could it be that a combination of both is the most severe? Give them 15 or 20 years to think about why they are there and all of a sudden set a execution day. Or better yet why don't we send all death row inmates to Iraq. Put them right on the front line using them as human shields and let them die there instead of the law abiding young men and women that are having to do it now, we can solve the problem of prison over-crowdedness and life termination in one shot. We can even let the Iraqi people keep the bodies to save the U.S. taxpayers from having to pay to bury them. In short all the good deeds in the world won't bring back Stanley's victims nor will executing him, too bad he had to kill poeple to find a just cause to contribute something meaningful to the world. It's a little late don't ya think? Justice has spoken--- so be it.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    Excellent, he's written some children's books. That ought to just about make up for that founding the Crips, ruining hundreds of people's lives with drugs and violence, convicted of murder thing. Paid in full!

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    I heard the "Democracy Now" interview with "tookie" before I knew anything about his history or pending execution. The incorrect use of legal-speak and some "pretty big words" in that interview told me "tookie" was trying to jive-talk the radio audience. So I figured his meek tone of voice and air of contrition was just a put on. Then I did a little investigating, and found that this co-founder of a murderous street gang could have done a lot to break up that gang by providing information to the police. Yet he has refused to do so because he "didn't want to be a snitch". So much for his wonderous reform. As you sow, shall you reap...

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    okay i'm a bit confused but danielle2459 wrote: It's not that he shouldn't be killed. Of course he shouldn't. It's not that he's innocent (by any definition). It's not that he's been nominated for Nobel Prizes and praised by President Bush (who took it back when he learned Tookie was on death row). Those things make for a dramatic story line and lend some interest to his tale, but they don't make him so special that Ohioans and everyone else should be working for his clemency. ??????what ohioans are working for his clemency?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    I'm curious - why all the talk about Tookie Williams? Is this the same man whose claim to fame is being the co-founder of the notorious CRIPS gang? All of the emails I've read talks about how Mr. Williams has denounced the CRIPS and how he has written childrens books and how he is now reformed. Tell me people, what were his other options while being incarcerated??? What else did he have to do but write and read (his interviews clearly indicate that not only did Mr. Williams write books he read the dictionary over and over and over again). So, lets talk about the book writing. Would it be necessary for us to have books for children - children, imploring them to avoid gangs if Mr. Williams had not co-founded the Crips gang in the first place? Probably NOT! News articles state that Stan has "saved the lives of over 150,000 youths but how many lives did he by his own hands and the hands of his followers KILL??? Countless - I'm sure of it!!! Let's move on now to Mr. Williams denouncing the Crips - again I ask - what was his other options?. The man is trying to save his life! But my question is this....if he were sincere in his efforts of reform, why not help the police to bring down some of the nortorious Crips that are still roaming the streets - that would speak volumes for Mr. Williams sincerity. Let me venture a guess as to why he won't - he's still affiliated with the Crips - yes even behind bars! Lastly, I know a lot of you are in an uproar because you feel Mr. Williams was "set-up", didn't receive a fair trial etc... I'll go out on a limb and agree with you on all counts but by doing so we must ask ourselves this - although he was caught for something he didn't do, what about all the crimes that he did commit (remember now...he is the Co-Founder of the Crips - he had to get his hands dirty too)??? As for writing the books again I say - so what??? The man is in jail - he has a lot of time on his hands - why not write a book (reading the dictionary all day can be a bit tedious). At the end of the day it is the responsibility of the parents of these children to teach them the difference between right and wrong. Why are we expecting the same man who got us into this mess to be responsible for helping us to deter our children from it??? Give me a break - why are we so afraid of responsibility. Children of the age these books were written for should be learning right and wrong from their parents and children of older age should already know it and if they don't do you really think they are going to pick up a book written by a gang leader, put it down and denounce gangs because Tookie a man they hhave never met said so??? I think NOT. It would be interesting to know that if Mr. Williams was given a second chance - they let him go - that's right no jail - a free man - which one of you "free Tookie" marchers would welcome him and all his baggage as your next door neighbor??? I'm thinking you might sing another song at that point. Just a thought...

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Stanley can still help others by his legacy that will teach them if they murder they will eventually pay for it. He did it, he should go. All the celebrities need to stop this embarassing foolishness.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    To: Aneyeforaneye Yes Stanley Williams was one of the Co-Founders of the Crip gang. What about the Founder of the Klu Klux Klan???? Mr. Williams could have been like other inmates who just sit behind bars and, never have any remorse for the wrongs that they have done. I don't know for certain if Mr. Williams carried out the four murders back in 1979...there are only 8 people who know the truth....The 4 victims, Mr. Williams, The Murderer, Jesus and the Devil. While he has been incarcerated yes he has did a 360 and that should say something for him. Yes it is true that most convicts do end up finding God (I never knew he was lost or missing but, that's just my opinion) some of them really do and Praise be to the Lord. On most of these boards people have expressed by killing Williams the family's of the victims will be able to get even....Do we really ever get even??? No!!!

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    The death penalty has nothing to do with inhumane treatment. The same people that argue that the death penalty is inhumane, are the same ones that typically support government-funded abortions as a means of birth control. Tookie Williams committed the crime of murder. An impartial jury convicted him of those murders. As allowed by California law, he is scheduled to be executed. Lethal injection is far more humane than executing someone by shooting them in the back of the head. It doesn't matter that he has "changed" and that he has written childrens' books, and been an advocate against gang involvement. Perhaps those youth that have read his stories will understand how bad gang involvement is when they learn that Mr. Williams has been executed. Then his advocacy will come full circle. He did the crime, and whether he has changed or not, he must still pay the consequences of that crime. A change of heart does not allow us to escape consequences.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    As for the Nobel Peace Prize, I say we nominate Josef Stalin. He only committed 12 million murders. Look at it this way, he saved a lot of Russians from starving after WWII. If Jimmy Carter and Yassie Arafat are worthy of the prize, I guess Sadaam Hussein should get it too.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Mr. Tookie Williams should be pay for what he did to the 4 victims that he killed. Just because he writes some books and gets nominated for a Nobel Prize, does that enttile him to clemency? If that was the case all the gangbangers would be doing what he's doing to escape execution from the gas chamber or lethal execution. Nobody talks about the 4 innocent victims that were murdered by this gangbanger. Who speaks for them??

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:36 PM EST
    Stanley Williams is gulty of a crime and he is a murderer, this is undeniable. I have lived in Australia for the last three years arriving from London, England. Yesterday the Changi prison in Singapore executed a convicted drug trafficker Van Nguyen – an Australian for possesion of drugs. When at work I was asked my opinion on this I said that he deserved exactly what he got because that was the law. Whilst Mr Williams has commited heanous acts in the past, what cannot be ignored is the tremendous amount of good that he has also achieved by his will and determination to write the wrongs he has committed in his gangland past. This would be born by your own President of the United States recognising Mr Williams for his volunteer work. What about the family of the victims? I cannot speak for them. I do know that if your son came up to you and said that at school he was hit by some kid and he wanted to learn how to get revenge you would teach him how to defend himself, but not find the other boy and hit him. Why is is that we teach our children these basic moral codes yet we refuse to live by them ourselves? Is it any wonder that we at times look hypocritcal to our children? The more I think about the more I see that although according to the law Mr Williams should be excuted, the more I see that responsibly, he should receive clemency. Let me explain:, I read the other day that Pierce Brosnan has cut all ties with his son (It’s what I read I’m not altogether sure if this is true) due the fact that his son is a habitual drug user and refuses to accept the help that Mr Brosnan had given him. I bet you all the money in the world that if Pierce’s son was to clean up his act and return to his father a clean man there would be a reconcilliation. Because all Pierce wants is his son back. Mr Williams committed a crime, he would have no doubt been warned on the outside world that he should stop but he didn’t. He committed the crime got caught and was removed from society. During his exile, he has learned the error of his gangland ways. He has worked to reform his life and affect the lives of others. Just as Pierce Brosnan would want welcome his son back should not the Governor, consider this man as an individual who has seen the error of his ways? The LAW states that he can and should be executed however, his death serves no purpose for the good that he is doing now. Living in England, as you know there isn’t a death penalty system and I have always believed that it takes too long in America to execute someone, I have also said in the past that if the man is standing over the body with the smoking gun in his hand then why waste time? In this instance though the delay has helped to reform a man and increase the positive affect that he has on people, people that only he can reach and it shouldn’t be ignored. I appreciate that bigger things are happening politically that I would ever realise but I’m sure you recognise a lust for blood when sound reasoning can be used. He would spend the rest of his life in prison, not harming society, imprisoned, and being an inspiration to many people. Personally, Stanley Williams doesn’t inspire me, the law is on your side of execution, it would be good though, if the Governor on a moral ground that is transcends any law man can create.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    If all you people are so sure he is a changed man,I will start a petition to let the courts place him under house arrest in any one of your houses,any takers?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    overtly racist comment deleted. commenter banned.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    Attn Col Klunk, I read your comment containing the racial slurs and i was just wondering,what backwards Southern Alabama Trailer park are you sending this message from? Comments like that really make me hate the other side of me. How are you better than Tookie? You preach hatred that continues to cause a divide between races. I certainly don't believe that you are military, because when you get over seas defending this great country and a black American is watching your back, skin color usually goes out the window(with most educated people). I am proud of being who i am. Even the side of me that i am sure you are.Diversity is what makes America great.At the turn of the century America welcomed different cultures from all over the world.Those people helped build this nation to where we are today(yes even black people genius). In closing I think Tookie williams should be where he is and i respect the courts decision for what ever happens on Dec.13. Ps I love all music including rap and all people from abroad.Write back when u have something more educated to say.Look up this word- Ethnocentrism.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    Some thoughts... I was always under the impression that you do not just leave a gang, much less decry one you used to belong to without something bad happening to you. Next, how can a person sentenced to death ever be considered 'rehabilitated'? There is no chance of his release, and an obvious desire to have him killed, so how does 'rehabilitated' apply? You maliciously take another persons life, then you do not deserve to live either, period. Next, the bible quotes. Stop already. And finally, maybe the death penalty isn't a deterrent, but one could imagine that NOT putting 'Tookie' to death would result in the next gang member killing indescriminatly thinking 'hey, Snoop Dogg and everyone else will help get me off.' Ít is a badge of honor to kill people while in a gang, so it won't stop no matter what you do. So, yes, the world would be a better place without all the Tookies of the world.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    klunk people like you make me ashamed to be white. its somewhat distrubing to think that a murderer and an extreme gang activist can have more positive inpact than you. weak sauce klunk, [offensive language deleted]

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Redemption is a nice quality, how ever what about justice???? Are we saying that the man didn't know right from wrong? Can we go to a judge and say I'm sorry for speeding your honour and then do it again and apologize over and over and not expect judgement or to pay. Remember this man "ADMITS" to killing 4 people. My question is this do they grant the same clemency to Nazi war criminals, no. Let's say Saddam Hussein was sentenced to death and then miraculously becomes a model prisoner, writes children's books, donates his money to charity, etc. Do you really think we'll let him off??? Something to consider

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#81)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Remember this man "ADMITS" to killing 4 people.
    I don't think he does, but I could be wrong. He still deserves his punishment, but since when does Arnold do anything I agree with? I believe if his sentence is commuted, he will be placed into general population where he can once again begin his rule. Who here thinks prison gangs don't have influence outside prison walls? Anyone? Buehler?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    A few things: I would also guarantee the people trying to save Tookie's life also believe in the murder of unborn children (conveniently disguised as a woman's reproductive choice). Also, of course God wrote the Bible. You need to know what you are talking about. The fact that he used man to put it down on paper does not take away the fact that He alone is the author.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    I HAVE TO MAKE THIS CLEAR. I AM A CRIP. I HAVE BEEN FOR MORE THAN 8 YEARS. I AM ONLY 20. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE CHANGED MY LIFE. HOW DARE ANY OF YOU PASS JUDGMENT ON TOOKIE. YOU DO NOT KNOW HIM. YOU ALSO DO NOT KNOW THE LIVES THAT HE HAS CHANGED. I HAVE NOT SOLD DRUGS OR PARTICIPATED IN ANYTHING GANG-REALATED FOR MORE THAN 2 YEARS. TOOKIE IS THE REASON I CHANGED. THE BOOKS, THE MOVIE, EVERYTHING HAS TOUCHED THE LIFE OF SOMEONE. HE HAS BEEN ON DEATH ROW FOR 24 YEARS. AND NOW THAT HE MAY BE GETTING THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE YOU WANT TO EXECUTE HIM? THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME. BUT TO MOST OF YOU I KNOW WHAT IT IS. ONE LESS NIGGA TO DEAL WITH. THAT'S HOW SOCIETY WORKS. EVEN THOUGH SLAVERY IS NO LONGER SUPPOSED TO BE A PART OF THIS NATION, IT STILL IS. IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE. THE GOVERNEMNT MAKES IT THAT WAY. BUSH, MAKES IT THAT WAY. I REFUSE TO LET ANYONE KNOCK US FOR TRYING TO SAVE THIS MANS LIFE. BECAUSE IF HE LIVES...HE WILL CHANGE THE LIVES OF PEOPLE EVERYDAY. KNOWING THAT YOU WILL NEVER BE FREE IS A BAD ENOUGH CONSEQUENCE. DON'T YOU THINK?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    After convicted, an inmate goes to death row for execution, not for rehabilitation. Arnold will have to second guess a jury, evidence and over two decades of appeals. They don't call Arnold the Terminator for nothing.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    miss nicole,Quit whining and being a victim,noone owes you anything.You complain that we "dont know him" how could you when he has been in prison for 24 years and your 20?My onlt regret is that they dont use the electric chair in CA.MAYBE YOU COULD SIT ON HIS LAP WHEN THEY THROW THE JUICE.2 FOR THE PRICE OF ONE

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Nicole, HOW DARE ANY OF YOU PASS JUDGMENT ON TOOKIE. He was convicted of 4 murders. In twenty years no evidence has been revealed to indicate his innocence. Mr. Williams should thank God for capital punishment. His redemption only came when he was placed under fear of this punishment. He may never have found redemption had he not been sentenced to death. For me Remember: Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, Yu-Chin Yang Lin, Albert Owens. And Mr. Williams, may his name and memory be erased from the face of the earth.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Hey what would Jesus do? Probably have some choice words for the rednecks polluting this thread.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    I just read the clemency request submitted to the Gov of California by Tookie's attorney of record. I am interested in reading the clemency request submitted by Tookie's victims. Oh wait, they didn't get to submit one. Hmmm..

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    To Miss Nicole 90, while the original trial MAY have been unfair (and that's a big IF) certainly the subsequent 24 years of appeals had at least a single opportunity to present information that would have granted him a new trial. That's why we have the system of appeals that we do. To correct mistakes. Therefore, I can only assume that the trial was handled properly. Were the defendent to admit and accept responsibility for his crimes, and there was more than circumstantial evidence presented at trial, I would say that he could possibly be an asset to society. BUT, he has not only not admitted and accepted responsibility for the heinous murders, he has also not denounced the CRIPS completely because he doesn't want to be a "rat". To my mind, that indicates that he is not nearly as rehabilitated as the pro-Tookie crowd would like to believe. When all of this is over, no matter which way it is decided, Snoop will go his own way and sell his new CDs. The rest of the Hollywood elite will also disappear from his scene. And your idol will be allowed to live and breathe, carefree for the rest of his life without guarantee that he will do a single thing more to advance peace. Meanwhile, his four victims (that we know of) won't have that opportunity. In case you weren't paying attention, they're dead. And, finally, in case you're wondering, I am an inner-city African-American female, 17 yrs old. I have been exposed to gangs my whole life but have chosen a different path. One that leads to light instead of sure incarceration.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    "I may not know Tookie personally, but my Dad does, and that's all that matters." The frightening thing to me is the realization that joining the Crips is apparently something that multiple generations of family members aspire to.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:48 PM EST
    Miss Nicole, This is not going to be of much help to Tookie, or do much to relieve your anger, but if you click on this link you'll find the archives on this site for all the previous threads in which people here have discussed the death penalty and expressed their opinions on it. Some support it, but most people that comment here you'll find are disgusted with the death penalty and very adamantly opposed to it, for anyone, regardless of what they've been convicted for. Personally I am opposed to it and hope that Schwarzenegger, using whatever justification he wants, even political gain for himself, grants Tookie clemency. I would like to see the death penalty abolished completely. Your anger is mostly justified, I think, but at the same time you are tarring everyone with the same brush. There are many different kinds of people that comment here. Most of them are good people. Some are not. Please read through the archives on the link I gave you. I think you'll find opinions in them that you probably don't expect to find. Take care.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:48 PM EST
    why exactly should my state take my tax money and pay for tookie to live? i work my ass off for that money and i can think of a hell of a lot more needed areas that money can go. until there's prison reform i'm tired of knowing that great gobbin chunk of money that comes out of every check pays for some guy who blatently went out and ended peoples lives for a little more than gas money. tookie wants to live.... then support yourself tookie. until prisons are created where every inmate works a job, pays rent on their cell, pays their water, electricity, and food bill, pays for their own counseling, will i feel different. or believe any claims of reform. admitting the errors of your ways are just words. living clean in prison is no judge of living clean in the world unless inmates are held responsible for their lives while in prison. 3 free squares and a cot and i could write childrens books. hell, pay my rent and food and i too could do amazing things. society created tookie. we're responsible. we're handling it like crap, this human race. killing him is another way to sweep the ugly stuff under the rug. but if i'm going to work my ass off to keep me alive i can't see continuing to support the boy. prison reform, inmate responsibility, and you can take all that money and help kids to make better choices. yeah we're all screwed.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    I say kill the guy. What ever happened to the old saying "An Eye for an Eye". Lets give the innocent victoms a chance to rest in peace.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    I've had a thought about the victims..."What about the victims!" Many people cry. Well, many of you I take it are Christian and the man you follow Jesus Christ was arrested on trumped up charges given an unfair trial and even when he was released the people he was returned to wanted him killed, a victim indeed. What did your fearless leader say...."Forgive them Father..." You must appreciate that the supporters of Mr Williams are not asking for forgiveness, they are asking for clemency. dvls advocate.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    jUST A QUICK COMMENT....I WAS WATCHING A MOVIE ON BET EARLIER AND A NEWS BREAK CAME ON. THERE WERE 4 YOUNG MEN FROM A RIVAL GANG...CALLED THE BLOODS...THAT TOLD THE CALIFORNIAN GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WOULD HAND OVER NUMEROUS PISTOLS AND ASSAULT RIFLES IN EXCHANGE FOR TOOKIE'S CLEMENCY. I KNOW THAT MANY OF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT THAT MEANS TO ME...THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE FROM ANOTHER GANG...THAT HATE ME AND THE REST OF THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE CALLED FAMILY,(CRIPS) WANT THE MAN WHO FOUNDED US TO LIVE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE THAT HE IS MAKING IN THE LIVES OF YOUNG PEOPLE. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    Here's an interesting fact: Black people were excluded from serving on the jury in his trial. Now what kind of person would support capital punishment under a racist judicial system?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    Ernesto, Not everyone here is advocating capital punishment. What a lot of people are disputing is the claim that Williams is innocent. The worst punishment for him would be life without parole. Then in a year when he is no longer the flavor of the month of fashionable causes, he would begin to live out the rest of his years alone and forgotten. His lawyer has stated that the reason they are not arguing his innocence is that "We are not in a position to do that." Why do you suppose that is? Many people conveniently forget his victims, whose names are: Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, Yu-Chin Yang Lin, Albert Owens. The creep bragged about killing them which is one of the reasons he was convicted. Racism was certainly a motive in the killings, Williams bragged that he killed some "buddaheads" to individuals who testified against him at the trial. He was convicted because he murdered people, not because of racism.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    Nicole, If you believe Tookie is so rehabilitated and is doing so many good things now, and is against gangs,and their violence, then WHY ARE YOU STILL A MEMBER OF THE CRIPS? This alone is evidence that his "reforms" have no affect on you...Just food for thought!!!

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    To everyone who thinks the death penalty is immoral, I want you to think of someone who you love very dearly. Now imagine that someone brutally murdered them in cold blood, laughing while they did so. Can you tell me, HONESTLY, that you think just putting them behind bars, feeding them three meals a day, and letting them work out, play basketball, and take up other hobbies for the rest of their lives is a fair punishment?? I didn't think so. So please, a little empathy for the victims' families wouldn't hurt. The death penalty IS a just punishment for murder. Despite popular belief, all people are NOT basically good. Some people are bad, even evil. It is an ABSOLUTE FACT that many murderers do so repeatedly. Look at the news. How many times have we seen sex offenders offend again once they're out? How many times have we seen violent offenders commit violent crimes again once they're out? When someone commits a brutal act of murder, why should they be given another chance to do so? For every criminal that reforms themselves, there are otherrs that do not. By the way, lets not forget that dangerous murderers are also a danger to the inmate population behind bars. By saying no one should ever be executed (not even Tim McVeigh?), no matter what they do, you're essentially asking the justice and penal systems to babysit murderers and psychopaths for the rest of their lives. This is a kindness that murderers don't deserve. As a society, we must balance the notions of forgiveness with accountability. As individuals, we all must find it in our hearts to forgive those who do us wrong - whether we choose to or not is a personal decision. But governments do not have that luxury; they have a RESPONSIBILITY to hold people ACCOUNTABLE for their crimes, regardless of the perpetrator's redemption or lack thereof. The real question here, and with the death penalty in general, is whether or not the accused is actually guilty. The problem with the death penalty is in its application. It is a FACT that innocent people have been executed in our generation. This is unacceptable. Tookie has always maintained his innocence. I'm not sure that any of us are informed enough about the details of the case to offer a proper judgement, but I will say this: Unless we can be sure, without any doubt whatsoever, that Tookie is guilty, he should not be executed. There are some cases where the guilt of the accused is unquestionable due to overwhelming evidence. If this is not the case with Tookie, then for God's sake, we cannot take the chance of executing him for crimes he didn't commit. Yes, starting the Crips is a horrible thing, but its not a capital offense. Yes, he may have done many terrible things we don't know about but thats just it, we don't know. And finally, Yes, he does seem to have genuinely found redemption - which cannot be taken away from him in life or death.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#105)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Unless we can be sure, without any doubt whatsoever, that Tookie is guilty, he should not be executed. Link

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Many of us are hypocrites and mixed up about the death penalty. If you believe in defending our country when attacked or otherwise by using lethal force if needed, then you cannot be against the death penalty as far as I see it. Death is death. You cross the line, you get death. It's a natural thing. Nature is full of it. We are of the earth and although many may believe we are above the laws of nature, we are not. Nature can be beautiful as well as tooth and claw. This is not a Disney ride, it's real life. It would not be fair for this man to get out of his sentence because he has a well oiled political and celebrity machine helping him. What about all those on death row who we never heard of? Would letting a convicted murdered get out of his sentence be fair to them? And as many have brought up, the victims never get justice. We as society have already paid millions to keep this man alive because of his staling with appeals. MILLIONS! Is that fair to those that really need help? A child with cancer or ? If Tookie has found religion then it would be appropriate for him to tell his admirers to be peaceful and not cause trouble if he meets his maker on Tuesday. After all isn't that what he is now preaching? Peace?

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    I AM ALWAYS GOING TO BE A CRIP IN MY HEART. I DO NOT PARTCIPATE IN ANY GANG ACTIVITIES ANYMORE. i AM TRYING TO PASS TOOKIE'S LEGACY ON IN A POSITIVE WAY. I AM ALSO TRYING TO GET KIDS OFF OF THE STREET. CRIPS WILL ALWAYS BE A PART OF WHO I AM. I HATE TO SAY IT LIKE THAT, BUT THAT'S HOW IT IS. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT RAISED ME. THEY FED ME, CLOTHED ME, MADE SURE I WENT TO SCHOOL AND HAD A ROOF OVER MY HEAD. I WILL ALWAYS LOVE THEM, I JUST WILL NOT PARTICIAPTE IN WHAT THEY DO.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#108)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Miss Nicole 90 That's cool. We all have our roots. In today's world an good education is paramount. Not just education from the streets but from the schools we have in our fine country. Get out there, get educated, and work in a field that makes you feel rewarded. It does not matter what color we are or who our family is. It matters if we become productive members of society. Get a degree and come back to your neighborhood and work with the people you know and love if that is your calling.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I have read Miss Nicoles postings..or perhaps one can say, Rantings, and have come to one conclusion about all this... She sure didnt help that murderin bastards case any. Its amazing, but put a "bad ass" in jail, let him find Bubba in a bad mood a couple of times, and its amazing how fast they find God.. Shame, this time, its not God that hes gonna find...but rather, if you believe that way, Satan. 12:01 tonight, it aint gonna make a damn and thankfully, the families of the victims of this bastards life may find some closure. Miss Nicole..on a personal note: I personally think you are a wannabe banger. You can sit and scream all you want about family, but if you guys were as harmless as you say, after your fearless leader is toast, you guys would turn in every weapon you own, you would suddenly start working the soup kitchens in CA and other areas, and devote the rest of your life trying to emulate the lifestyle that your fearless leader tried to find in prison. Since you wont, and hate is your motivational factor in your life...due to either emotional, or mental issues...I dont expect much in the way of a legitmate coherent reply. If you want to blame someone for whats about to happen, blame Mr Williams. HE pulled the trigger, HE put the thought process in motion to end up where he is. Food for thought to all the moral types that fall back on the Bible at a time like this to try to justify your position that you dont fully understand....Tho shalt not murder...yes...its there, but how about you go back and try to put that into place with all the stonings that took place IN YOUR BIBLE. Stoning, was yesterdays electric chair... I know...its lethal injection now. First, he gets paralized, then, gets to go to sleep and then, poof...just more dead meat. Sure beats a head bashing with rocks.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#110)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I AM REALLY GLAD THAT EVERYONE THINKS SO HIGHLY OF ME!!! I DO NOT CARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS, BECASUE I MAKE MY OWN RULES, I AM MY OWN PERSON, AND NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO, I WILL NEVER CHANGE. I SAY WHAT I WANT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT'S ON MY MIND. I SAY HOW I FEEL, BECAUSE YOU DO TOO. I AM IN COLLEGE, WORKING, AND DOING WHAT I GOT TO DO FOR MYSELF. I DO NOT NEED ANYONE TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD BE DOING. I AM NOT A WANNABE GANG BANGER. I AM AN EX GANG BANGER. BIG DIFFERENCE. I SOLD DOPE FOR THE CREW, I PIMPED GIRLS FOR EM' TOO. I PULLED TRIGGERS, STOLE CARS, ALL THAT. BUT LET ME TELL YOU THE GOOD SIDE. THE SIDE THAT MADE SURE I FINISHED SCHOOL, THE ONES THAT TOOK CARE OF ME WHEN MY DAD WAS MURDERED. ALL THE STATE WANTED TO DO WAS THROW ME IN A HOME. I GOT THE CHOICE TO LIVE THE LIFE THAT I LED. THEY NEVER FORCED IT ON ME. I WANTED IT. THE MONEY, THE STATUS. I WANTED ALL OF THAT. SO, KNOCK ME IF YOU WANT TO, GO AHEAD. I AM USED TO IT. SO IS TOOKIE. BUT WE ALL HAVE SKELETONS. EVERY ONE OF US!!!!!!!! I GOT OUT OF THAT, AND SO DID TOOKIE. CAN WE AT LEAST GET CREDIT FOR THAT????

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    In about 8 hours,Tookie Will be gone and we can work on the rest of the Crips across America,who have robbed and murdered many people.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    joesouth that is beautiful writing,couldnt agree more just the thought of a grown man going by" TOOKIE" MAkes me think the state should have killed him years ago.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    I believe that the question of whether Stan should be put to death is a difficult one, considering I don't know every detail about his case. I do know, however, that there are four people who left this world without the same number of appeals as Stan has had. No one sat around discussed whether these four victims should live, they were just brutally killed. I also wonder about Stan's so-called "rehabilitation." He won't show remorse for killing 4 people because he maintains his innocence, fine. But at least help authorities by giving names of those who you know for sure are out in this world committing crimes. If you refuse to do that to save many lives, how can you say that you're a changed man? Yes, the man wrote books and found God, but gee, if I was locked in a cell for over twenty years, I think I would too. But how can we know if he's sincere? And Miss Nicole, what does being a Crip mean to you? Why do you hold it so close to your heart? You say that you're your own person who makes your own rules, yet you still cling to the Crip label. I think it's great that you're doing what you have to do: going to school, working hard, leaving a life of crime and desperation behind you. I respect you for that. But it doesn't sound like you truly regret pulling triggers, pimping girls, and stealing cars. To convince people to change their lives for the better, you have to renounce that lifestyle and that label, or else who will take you seriously? Anyway, back to Tookie. Whether he really does feel redemption, we can never really know. He did do some horrible things in his life, and he has tried to deter others from that kind of life. But he was found guilty, and will be put to death tonight. I'm in school getting my teaching degree and I plan on using Stan's books in my classroom. I feel that he's done a good thing trying to show children where a life of crime can lead. But who knows his real reasons for doing that? And what kind of message would we be sending our children, the readers of his books? Do we tell them that you can do things that you KNOW to be wrong, but it's OK if you're sorry for it later? His time on this planet is done. He did what he could to at least try to turn some of it around (sincerely or not). But he isn't above the law. He will meet his maker soon, and whatever God decides to with him is fine with me.

    Re: Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    Many of you are getting way too carried away and need to grow up. The facts are that a man is to be executed on the outcome of what could be a seriously unfair trial. STW may (or may not) be responsible for several other crimes, but may not have actually commited the ones he sits on death row for. So let's keep it in perspective - the evidence against STW looks flawed.

    Save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams | 109 comments (109 topical)