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My Reform For The Nomination Process

I am watching a C-Span broadcast about the broken, undemocratic, and corrupt nomination process. Elaine Kamarck of the DNC Rule and Bylaws Committee is going through the history and droning on about this and that. And it hit me. The solution to the problem is simple - we should change the Presidential nomination process to a pure popular vote system. This would end all the silly calendar nonsense. You want to go first? Be my guest. That is not going to change the fact that California has the most people.

This would also let states decide if they wanted to pay for a real election (a primary) or wanted instead to hold a phony election (a caucus). It gets rid of superdelegates. Heck, it gets rid of DELEGATES period. It gets rid of every unDemocratic feature in the process (no overweighting rural districts or urban districts or any district.)

Finally, it eliminates the importance of incompetents like Donna Brazile. So there you have it. My proposed reform for the nomination process.

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    Brilliant idea!!!! (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by athyrio on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:14:47 PM EST
    I second that motion, BTD.....

    Can we also do it all on one day... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Shainzona on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:17:15 PM EST
    Say....March 1st of primary year?

    Parent
    Good idea, but... (none / 0) (#163)
    by NotThatStupid on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:10:39 PM EST
    ... let's require all votes to be by mail-in with ballots to be mailed to and counted by the party, not the states.

    Other suggestions:

    Ballots only accepted if post-marked between, say, February 1st and 29th.

    Any candidate who raises any funds for his/her campaign before November 1st of the previous year or who buys any campaign ad (of any type, print or broadcast) before January 15th loses half his/her votes, no exceptions.

    I like your idea. Simple and effective, and the candidates can choose among several different strategies: big state/expensive ads, small state/ cheaper ads, or a combination of the two.

    The nominee is known by March 1, no need for a convention - other than free publicity - and Bob's your uncle.

    Parent

    Too simple and sensible, (none / 0) (#181)
    by ghost2 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:36:33 AM EST
    and therefore sure to be rejected by the democratic party.  

    A winner, take-all system is good too. That would encourage small states to vote.  

    Parent

    democracy for the democratic party (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:15:11 PM EST
    how radical...

    There are (none / 0) (#149)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:41:44 PM EST
    a few practical issues.  

    Are you OK with a state reducing its voting age to say 16 or even 12 to boost the raw number of votes cast?

    If after 95% of the votes were in it was found that the candidate with 60% of the vote had hired a hit man to rub out the spouse, then are you stuck with this loser?

    Do you require a majority or will a simple plurality do?  If only a plurality, are you OK with an outcome where the candidate with 12% of the vote wins in a ten candidate field.

    If a state adopts "acceptance voting" (where you can vote for as many candidates as you like) would that be a problem?  Some see acceptance voting as a way to keep Nader type candidates from screwing up tight elections.  

    Would you be OK with discovered ballot boxes long after the vote in Chicago that tipped the election to the mayor's favorite?

    A simpler solution is to simply require winner take all primaries.  The proportional system as this election proves is prone to not producing a clear winner.


    Parent

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:26:12 PM EST
    and what if a meteor hits a state, and annihilates its population- does that state's no longer living population still count towards the total?

    Parent
    LOL! Meteor incoming! (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by alexei on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:25:31 PM EST
    The point (none / 0) (#177)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:58:51 PM EST
    in case you missed it is the delegate system avoids many train wrecks.

    Parent
    Also Nancy Pelosi. . . (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:26:35 PM EST


    Pelosi could organize a one-float parade (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:44:22 PM EST
    I'll give her that much.  Pretty good description of the Dems in Congress these days.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:56:05 PM EST
    And while you are at it get rid of the electoral college. Popular vote wins.

    EXACTLY!!! (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:57:20 PM EST
    You see where I am going.

    Parent
    And after that (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:57:40 PM EST
    the Senate.

    Parent
    Are pitchforks and (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by DaytonDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:03:14 PM EST
    burning torches going to be issued at the rally or will we be expected to provide them?...heh   ...sign me up if we can rid ourselves of the electoral college and the undemocratic senate.

    Parent
    Well that's fine with me (none / 0) (#65)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:37 PM EST
    but I don't understand why you would then devolve so much power to the states on how this would be conducted.

    Parent
    Why not? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:09:47 PM EST
    I do not follow your logic there.

    Parent
    Why give so much power to the states (none / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:14:10 PM EST
    to decide how the process should be conducted? What can they do that the national party can't? More specifically, as I ask above, what do you do about state governments that are dominated by Republicans?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:15:42 PM EST
    They can organize a float parade for one thing.

    You really trust the Donna Braziles of the world on this?

    I do not.

    Parent

    No, I trust none of them (none / 0) (#88)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:19:53 PM EST
    I would trust states with divided or mostly Democratic government to conduct the process fairly. But what do we do about the red states?

    Parent
    I think the problem (none / 0) (#100)
    by Iphie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:27:10 PM EST
    with using the current political affiliations of states as a basis for process decisions is that these things change (not often, and not easily, but they do change), and just like gerrymandering, the effects of such decisions could have long-term and unintended consequences. I don't know how you would implement any sort of sweeping change such as this without applying the same rules for all states -- to do otherwise would be contrary to what I believe is the spirit of BTD's suggestion, i.e., moving closer to a truly democratic process.

    Parent
    Also, how does having a caucus (none / 0) (#104)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:33:55 PM EST
    in some states make it more democratic? And what about Independent and Rethug crossover?

    Parent
    Senate seats determined by popular vote! (none / 0) (#123)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:42:44 PM EST
    Now that's a change we badly need.

    Parent
    Except That (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:22:00 PM EST
    I think it would be a mathematical impossibility to get the necessary 2/3 votes to eliminate the anachronism. The small states will not cooperate in giving up their power. Not sure what the argument would be to convince them.

    Parent
    Caucus Votes (none / 0) (#146)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:22:50 PM EST
    Would the popular vote  be the actual number of people who participated in the process? If so, in a tightly contested primary like now, wouldn't a caucus state have less influence on the actual outcome of the nominee?

    In one way it sounds kind of unfair but OTOH caucuses are not fair. It might push states into having primaries instead. That would be good IMO.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#159)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:05:44 PM EST
    A caucus would have less influence than a primary.

    A state that held a caucus instead of a primary would be lessening its own influence.

    Parent

    I see the logic (none / 0) (#162)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:08:08 PM EST
    but think you'd run into the 50-state strategy as a roadblock.

    Parent
    gotta disagree... (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    This is the kind of proposal that gave us McGovern back in 1972, BTD.

    The idea is that if no candidate can garner support of 60% of the Democratic electorate, it should be up to the party professionals -- which makes perfect sense to me.

    I would get rid of caucuses -- Obama showed how to game the system, and destroyed the rationale for caucuses in the process (caucuses are designed to give PARTY activists a say, when a personality cult overwhelms the caucus system, it doesn't help the party on the local level.)

    As far as the calendar goes, "Red" states should be stuck at the back of the line.  

    But regardless of what happens, the single most important reform that has to happen is closed primaries -- unfortunately, some states don't register voters by party, so that will be a problem, but it should be DEMOCRATS who vote in the Democratic primary - and you should have to be a registered Democrat for at least six months before you can participate in the primary (unless you just turned 18).  No more of the "Democrat for a day" BS....


    Heh (none / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:16:43 PM EST
    But you are telling me the system we have now is giving us the Modern Day McGovern, Paul.

    So which is it?

    Parent

    eventually... (none / 0) (#173)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:59:12 PM EST
    all roads lead to a McGovern, BTD ;-)

    I just basically disagree that the system needs major fixing.  The real problem is the calendar.

    And the real problem this year is that the Clinton campaign screwed up -- she didn't organize in the immediate post ST states, and while any disinterested obvious would realize that Clinton won the nomination on ST, the week after ST prevented people from taking in what Clinton accomplished on ST.

    I've never been one to "fix" something that ain't really broken -- "operator error" was the problem here, not the system.

    Parent

    now there is a suggestion.... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Oje on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:52:26 PM EST
    The order in which states hold their primaries is determined by the proportion of the popular vote in the prior general election that voted Democrat. No more red-purple states (Iowa/New Hampshire/South Carolina/Nevada) or February caucuses (the Plains states) giving the media the power to declare front runners that defy the staunchly Democratic states--our current calendar is run by High Borderism.

    Parent
    I like that idea (none / 0) (#179)
    by pattonbt on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:31:37 PM EST
    It rewards the states who are 'most' democratic.  While I doubt it would make perceptible changes in general election voting, you never know.  But why not reward those that vote democrat more than republican.

    Parent
    Wouldn't a caucus that doesn't assign (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:35:34 PM EST
    delegates actually be a primary that allows voter intimidation  (like they are now)? The number of votes for each candidate would still have to be tallied so you may as well let the vote be private. A primary gets so much more participation that they should be the standard.

    First comment and you find (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:15:24 PM EST
    that info of such great importance you felt compelled to share it?

    Just curious (1.80 / 5) (#6)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:20:21 PM EST
    Were you railing against caucuses all along because you believe they are undemocratic or are they all of a sudden undemocratic and not real elections because Clinton lost so many of them? I just don't understand how people believe the rules should be changed along the way if they become a disadvantage to you.

    Just curious (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:21:39 PM EST
    Did you just fall off the blogging turnip truck?

    I hate commenters like you.

    HATE them.

    Parent

    I dont understand? (2.33 / 3) (#27)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:33:17 PM EST
    Why do you hate commenter's like me? Its a legitimate question. There are many Clinton supporters who had no problem with caucuses until she started losing them. Im not assuming that this is the case here, thats why Im asking. Was this something that was blogged about prior to this years primary, the concern that caucuses like the Iowa caucuses are phony elections? Im sure Clinton never expressed anything to that regard when she began her campaign in Iowa.

    Parent
    It is NOT a legitimate question (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:38:25 PM EST
    It is an insulting question.

    It is an ignorant question.

    Why don't you try and figure out what I have said about it before insulting me in your VERY FIRST COMMENT at this site.

    I repeat, I HATE commenters like you.

    DETEST THEM.

    Parent

    not insulting, just curious... (1.00 / 1) (#86)
    by thinkingfella on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    OK, I certainly don't want to insult you, but your outraged response got me curious. You seem to be implying that you did state some sort of complaint with the Democratic caucus system prior to the Iowa primary.

    Being a fair minded fellow, I thought I would help out and post a link to this complaint/critique for you. But after half an hour of looking, I couldn't find it. Of course you post quite a bit, so it's entirely possible I missed it.

    I'm not weighing in either way, I'm just pointing out that I tried to take your advice and find it, and if it's there it is indeed hard to find. Since your recollection of what you wrote would naturally be superior, perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

    Again, not wanting to be insulting at all, but I'm now genuinely curious.

    Parent

    Jim Henson. (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:22:57 PM EST
    ...freethinking25 and thinkingfella have a lot in common, it seems.

    Parent
    Haha (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:32:44 PM EST
    Not the most clever name in the history of sockpuppetry, is it?

    Maybe the next time he makes up a concern troll handle he ought to...

    ...wait for it...

    ...THINK about it first!

    (rim shot, wild applause, balloons dropping from ceiling)

    Parent

    Just curious (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:26:39 PM EST
    So your inability to use google is now my problem?

    Parent
    I'm open to suggestions... (none / 0) (#116)
    by thinkingfella on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:18:19 PM EST
    Tried this:
    "big tent democrat caucus delegate 2007 site:talkleft.com"
    Got 72 hits, none of them were written in 2007.

    Tried doing a bigger search:
    "big tent democract caucus delegate site:talkleft.com"
    Got 281 hits, none of them were written in 2007.

    Decided to just go for the gusto:
    "big tent democract caucus 2007" site:talkleft.com"
    Got 155 hits.
    As far as I could tell, none of the stories were critical of the caucus system.

    Again, not wanting to be insulting, just genuinely curious what you had to say before this was a real issue.

    Following up on your later comments, and after reading your dismissal of me and my Google skills, which I'll grant are not the most supreme Google skills, (and again I'll take a moment to say that I am hardly an Obama first fan. Frankly I find Obama and Clinton indistinguishable, and don't care who wins so long as one of them becomes President because McCain would just be a tragic disaster) I decided to dig a little deeper and see if I could find something using TL's search function. I wanted to pull my hair out because of how much you post BTD (you have written the equivalent of a novel!), and the fact I could only scroll through 50 posts at a time. I'm not the world's fastest reader either, so I don't claim this to be an exhaustive search, but I was able to find one post two weeks before the Iowa primary that said the Iowa primary was undemocratic due to the 15% rule (candidates without at least 15% support have their delegates apportioned to the voter's second choice).

    I did not find any critique of the caucus system in general. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, or in the right way. I don't claim to be an expert, just a reasonable person trying, out of curiousity, to read your position before this was a major issue, which was my point all along: a reasonable person (and I hope I meet this criteria!) can not easily locate this information.

    Oh and thanks for the muppets insults folks, that's a nice way to respond to a sincere post.

    BTW as stated above, I will vote for Clinton if she is nominated. I voted for Edwards, but my state (California) went for Clinton, so I'm not "the enemy" as you seem to strongly imply Obama supporters are.

    However just because I will vote for Clinton doesn't mean that I can't think for myself, or have critiques, and if I have a question about something, I'm going to ask it. If you can't deal with the question then keep on calling me names and making me out to be something I'm not. That reflects more on you (not BTD, but the "muppet" posters) then me I would hope.

    Parent

    Dear god (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:07:35 PM EST
    Oh and thanks for the muppets insults folks, that's a nice way to respond to a sincere post.

    Sorry, concern-trolling with a sock puppet is not "sincere". That's like strolling into a bank with a gun and a ski mask and complaining that they won't give you a loan.

    Parent

    Try This (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:27:48 PM EST
    Thanks Squeaky (none / 0) (#139)
    by thinkingfella on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:08:29 PM EST
    Tried it, and got 727 hits, most of which are from 2008. Tried narrowing it to 2007, and got nothing that wasn't on my other searches.

    So, BTD, I've tried following your suggestions, and I still can't come up with anything. Maybe you could just point out your post(s) to me, and I'll read them and shut up about it?

    Parent

    Hmm.... (none / 0) (#114)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:08:16 PM EST
    I don't understand the angry response. Im not insulting you, just trying to see where you are coming from. I've been a reader of this site for a few months now and finally decided to chime in because I am concerned about how hostile this primary has become. I don't hate any one, I have the utmost respect for Hilary Clinton as well as this site. I believe either her or Barack Obama would make a great President. What I am concerned about is that some people want to change the rules of the game halfway through the game. So I am on here to try to understand the rationale behind it. I am disturbed by people writing off half the country as not important states or caucuses as undemocratic or illegitimate.

    Parent
    Explain this, please (none / 0) (#115)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:13:04 PM EST
    What I am concerned about is that some people want to change the rules of the game halfway through the game.

    How are the rules, such as they are, being changed?

    Parent

    Well lets see... (none / 0) (#118)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    In the beginning of the primary's all candidates agreed that Michigan and Florida would not count. All candidates except Clinton pulled their names off the Michigan ballots and did not campaign there and all candidates did not campaign in Florida. Now Clinton wants to seat the delegates as well as count the popular vote totals in Florida and Michigan in the overall total. Im sure Clinton would have won Florida but we don't know by how much it would have been. As for Michigan Clinton now claims she has more people that voted for here because Obamas name was never on the ballot in Michigan so nobody voted for him. That is very disingenuous. Also in the beginning of the contest it was generally accepted that the canidate with the most pledged delegates would win. Now Clinton wants to argue that it should be based solely on the judgment of superdelagates as to who is more electable. If this is the case why did we even bother to hold the primary's?

    Parent
    How many false statements can you make in 1 post? (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Richjo on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:00:57 PM EST
    Clinton never agreed that Michigan and Florida would not count. She agreed not to campaign there, and she agreed that their delegates would be stripped (with of course the understanding that they could be restored later). She never agreed that their votes didn't count. In fact, by keeping her name on the ballot she made it clear she did care about the voters of Michigan. Also, both Chris Dodd and Dennis Kucinich kept their names on the ballot as well. Also, Obama ran ads in Florida and held a press conference there in violation of the pledge, so you are incorrect in saying that no one campaigned there. Furthermore, it was never accepted that whoever had the most pledged delegates would win even if they didn't reach the total needed for nomination. It had been accepted from the beginning that the Superdelegates would exercise independent judgment, that is why they are not pledged. It is the Obama campaign who has tried to change the rules in the middle of the game by basically reinventing the role of the superdelegates midstream. Also, the reason primaries are held is to see of one candidate can produce a conclusive winning margin. When they can't, then it is left to the judgment of the supers. The supers wouldn't be an issue of one of the candidates had clearly won a decisive victory. If they didn't then they have no right to the nomination. They need to make their case to the superdelegates on the basis of their ability as a candidate and potential President, and not by threats that they will tear the party in two if it doesn't go their way.

    Parent
    She said Michigan wont count (none / 0) (#143)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:19:23 PM EST
    She said (none / 0) (#151)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:43:54 PM EST
    Michigan wouldn't count under the roolz that were being imposed by the DNC.

    She kept her name on the ballot and got more than "Uncommitted," who certainly weren't all for Obama.

    Parent

    Wrong Again (none / 0) (#164)
    by Richjo on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:10:54 PM EST
    What she said was that she didn't believe that the election in Michigan would make a difference in who would get the nomination because she assumed like everyone else that the contest would resolve itself long before it has. She never said that it SHOULDN'T count, only that she thought it wouldn't wind up making a difference. Clearly it is going to wind up making a difference because the race is unresolved. If anyone has gone back on what they said it was Obama who told people he would do what was right by the voters in Florida. (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking).

    Parent
    How has he gone back? (none / 0) (#171)
    by freethinker25 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:42:21 PM EST
    He said IF he was the presumptive nominee he would seat the delegates. I'm sure whoever is the presumptive nominee will seat the delegates. What we cannot do is have those delegates decide who is the presumptive nominee.

    Parent
    BTD's Post Is A Recommendation Of How (none / 0) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:26:38 PM EST
    to fix the problem in the future. Did you miss that?

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:39:34 PM EST
    If you look at my name, you will see it is NOT Hillary Clinton.

    I DETEST commenters like you. HATE them.

    Parent

    BTD...tell us how you really... (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Shainzona on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:20:10 PM EST
    feel about commenters like that?

    Just teasing!

    Parent

    Not only not unlike, but (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by derridog on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:36:06 PM EST
    totally like.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:58:26 PM EST
    I don't see him saying that caucus' delegates should be banned from the 2008 convention. So what are you talking about?

    Maybe you're just talking about the general dissing of caucuses in relation to the nomination contest? In the talking point war about the popular vote total, it's a murky area so there's going to be disagreement on that. But that's all a game of psychology focused -- via the media and it's perceptions -- on the superdelegates, not a legal or procedural attempt to change any rules.

    Parent

    I railed against caucuses (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:00:33 PM EST
    and the delegate selection process all of 2007 but especially from October to December 2007.

    fyi.

    Parent

    I was responding to the commenter. (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    I was responding to the commenter. I don't doubt you when you say you dislike caucuses, and have for a while. I was trying to point out to him that the basis for his faux-interested comment (specifically the "rules should be changed" bit) was unfounded. Mostly for the benefit of others, since he was just trying to be gadflyish and annoying.

    Parent
    But even if you hadn't (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by janarchy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:30:21 PM EST
    the current run of caucuses and the stories that came out of them (other than the Chosen One's people who think they're hunky dory) have been hair-raising. I've never participated in one since New York is primary only (and happily closed to party members only so none of this cross over b.s.) but I've learned more about them this year than ever before. And they are not democratic, they are not fair and they are not indicative of anything other than mob-rules psychology. There are serious disadvantages to anyone who cannot get there at a given time of a given day, has to work, has small children, has language problems, etc. So if you're young and white and assertive, it's ace. If you're anything else, it sucks. And it's discriminatory because older people and people with small kids or who have to work at night etc. cannot participate. This is NOT democracy.

    So wow, maybe some of us have learned something, regardless of who our candidate-of-choice is and want to fix it for the next time. OMG, this must mean we're stupid racists. Again.

    Parent

    I hated caucuses since (none / 0) (#125)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:46:04 PM EST
    the first time I went to one.

    Parent
    which was before 2008 (none / 0) (#128)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:48:13 PM EST
    sorry, clicking "post" too fast....   realized that could be taken that I'd gone to my very first caucus this year. Urgh. Actually if I'd done that, it would be my last.   Tho the more I think about it, caucuses are such a travesty of the "democratic" process I doubt I can put myself through another one. Even if John Edwards were to run again.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#122)
    by madeinUSA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:36:36 PM EST
    We should not change the rules midway in the contest or after the results are known to favor or not favor. It is undemocratic! Regardless of who is winning or who is losing. Rules are rules, if you don't like them then get out of the race! They worked for many decades, funny there is an exception this year.

    Imagine what would happen if the Chinese were to change the rules midway in the Olympics this year to favor Russia over USA or USA allies? We will be screaming "OUTRAGEOUS" on the top of our lungs especially if we were the ones that got the short end of the stick. Same here. We should not change the rules now, when the game is over we can do rethink the rules.

    Parent

    BTD was is no way (none / 0) (#145)
    by leis on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:21:08 PM EST
    suggesting the rules be changed this year. It was more a comment on future nomination processes. But very astute observation that it would be supremely unfair to change the rules now. As you say, Rules are rules.  

    Parent
    There is nothing in the posted topic (none / 0) (#161)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    that alked about changing the rules now!  And the suggestion was about the nominating process which can be decided by the democratic party.

    The electoral college will need a constitutional amendment which requires two thirds vote of congress.  I am not sure about ratification by the individual states.

    But let us not confuse the two issues:  nomination by the political parties and the general election. The republicans can decide how they go about their nominating process and the democrats can do too.

    So if BTD's suggestion is adopted, at the convention, the secretaries of State (or whoever certifies the election) or perhaps the governors can announce the votes from their state. Then the convention will be limited to the formal proclamation of the nominee.  

    Parent

    Never. Gonna. Happen (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    You are essentially eviscerating the entire power structure of the DNC.  Never going to happen.  They are not going to willfully remove themselves from the process.

    Switch to a popular vote system would pretty much institutionlize the Red State/Blue State dichotomy.  Democrats would pretty much ignore small states as they would get almost nothing from them.

    What of the Democratic Convention?  Do away with that as well?  

    How bout something a little less extreme?  Perhaps have the DNC do away with caucuses and have a random schedule for elections?  

    Unfettered Democracy isn't so great.  The founding fathers were outright contemptuous of the average voter.  There is a reason why they only allowed the average voter to vote on the weakest arm of the government. It could be argued that the Senate is one of the greatest political constructs ever made.  Why you would want to see it destroyed, I have no idea.

    Um (none / 0) (#121)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:33:30 PM EST
    Switch to a popular vote system would pretty much institutionlize the Red State/Blue State dichotomy.  Democrats would pretty much ignore small states as they would get almost nothing from them.
    You know that there are BIG red states with lots of Democrats, right? You will have heard of Texas, right?

    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:44:46 PM EST
    But they are more of the exception than the rule.

    Also Dem nominees would spend most of their time in the urban areas as they have more people and are much closer.  For all its flaws, the current system does force the nominees to travel throughout a state to get delegates.  

    Parent

    and yet (none / 0) (#127)
    by Nasarius on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:47:20 PM EST
    I'll betcha 99% of voters have never seen a candidate in person.

    Parent
    I suspect (none / 0) (#130)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:49:47 PM EST
    that a lot more people than you think have seen the candidate particularly primary voters.

    Parent
    Nonsense (none / 0) (#132)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:50:42 PM EST
    look at any gubernatorial race in a big state. Candidates ignore rural areas at their peril.

    Parent
    Not the same thing (none / 0) (#133)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:54:53 PM EST
    everyone votes in a gubernatorial election.  We are talking about primaries.  

    If rural areas are dominated by the other party your return on investment is greatly diminished with a popular vote because there are not that many Democrats to woo.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:18:25 PM EST
    but I would add that we have to have a national primary day. I know the arguments against it, but I just don't care. It's more fair than any other proposal.


    The states can decide what day wthin a window (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:19:57 PM EST
    Say from January 1 to May 1.

    If everyone decides January 1, well then that it is the day.

    Parent

    And they decide what they want to do (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:20:57 PM EST
    primary or caucus.

    Let it be a free for all.

    One thing for sure, no more DELEGATES. EVER.

    Parent

    No, I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:53 PM EST
    No more caucuses, no more delegates, and a national primary day.

    The Democratic party is not the federal government, and it can standardize the process if it wants. It should.

    Now, you might have states that will bellyache or not comply. Fine, they will be allowed to participate if there is a primary state Dem party makes a reasonable effort to have in the date rage you indicate.

    Parent

    Why a national primary day? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:27:06 PM EST
    I like the opportunity for buyer's remorse to set in, myself.

    Parent
    I am for letting states decide when (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:28:37 PM EST
    their voters vote.

    Of course the one thing I would ask for is Closed primaries.

    But hell, make them Open if the States want.

    Parent

    Agree! Let States choose a date (none / 0) (#37)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:43:00 PM EST
    within a specified period between January and June.  Not more than two states on the same date so that each state gets due attention from the candidates; order of primary dates by lots. Let New Hampshire and Iowa be first together and the rest could follow.

    Parent
    That would require a lottery (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:46:05 PM EST
    so states could be slotted.

    I am against any unnecessary rules. Let Iowa and NH go first as that is always the sticking point.

    But 3 weeks later, then EVERYONE can go if they want.

    Parent

    Totally Agree (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:28:29 PM EST
    The fear of tyranny of the majority has led us directly to the tyranny of the elite.

    Parent
    A caucus as a way to count votes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:27:41 PM EST
    not select delegates.

    No delegates ever again.

    Parent

    Well, A caucus as a way to count votes (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:37:13 PM EST
    is just as unfair, in my opinion, as a caucus to apportion delegates.

    I would allow a mail primary, but no caucuses. Period.

    Parent

    Party can't make states hold primaries (none / 0) (#36)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:42:29 PM EST
    is the problem.  The party pays for caucuses, and elections are expensive for states.  

    It's interesting for me to see which states are too cheap to care about this, too hidebound by dysfunctional traditions, etc..  I think it is telling of much more, so it puts those states on my list of places not to live when we retire.

    Of course, with other factors to consider, too, that island off the coast of Mexico is looking better by the day, especially the days since this primary season started.

    Parent

    How about (none / 0) (#91)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:20:56 PM EST
    a rural island 35 minutes (by ferry) from the heart of downtown Seattle.  And, with climate change, we may eventually have better weather than Mexico, who knows.

    And, if delegates go away (which they should, imo) you can be sure that we won't have any more caucuses (this year we already pay for an unused primary (1/2 used by Rs), so money's not a problem.)

    I like the idea of mostly no scheduling for the primaries.  But Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada should go first.

    And, then open the flood gates.  This could have a self selecting aspect where state governments with strong D control would be most likely to move up their primaries, because they can easily pass the legislation to do so.  But, hopefully that doesn't overweight the influence of super left wing states because the more evenly matched states may not adjust according to the D Party rules (they would have Rs wanting to avoid breaking R rules that could disqualify or minimize the results of their primary in the R contest.)  Of course if the Rs also agreed to fundamentally change their nomination process then all of the states would want to go early, problem solved.

    It is my concern about having a nominee that is too polarizing that also makes me in favor of open primaries, but that should be a state decision.

    One interesting aspect of this type of primary is that you can easily imagine a party nominee with a plurality, but being far short of a majority, there are so many contenders in a primary, the vote will really be split.  That seems like it could be problematic.

    Parent

    Odd (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:28:00 PM EST
    because the one thing I really didn't like was the over-emphasis on the first 4 primaries.  They have entirely too much attention in my opinion.

    Parent
    4 states... (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:42:35 PM EST
    the problem is that Iowa and New Hampshire are overwhelmingly white -- and the DNC decided to "fix" the problem by giving states with disproportionate percentages of AA (SC) and Hispanic (NV) voters an early say as well.

    I mean, can't we have a state that "looks like America" among the early primaries?  A state with real diversity?  

    Parent

    Let the states decide (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:44:38 PM EST
    Let the DNC get out of the rulemaking business.

    Consider the problem enforcing the stupid rules has created this year.

    Let them decide if they want to marginalize their own voters by having caucuses.

    Put the onus on the states, not the Party.

    I completely disagree with you.

    You are arguing for new rules. I am arguing for LESS rules.

     

    Parent

    My feeling is that the national party (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:00:22 PM EST
    should play a role in making sure that the process is fair to every single voter.

    I do not trust the states to do this if left to their own devices. (Frankly, I don't trust the party either, but I don't know how you correct for that).

    I would have to insist on banning caucuses. If a state doesn't want to pay for a traditional primary, the party can organize a mail primary.

    Parent

    I do not trust he national Party (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:36 PM EST
    And it allows local voters to demand they get a fair shake from their own government.

    Parent
    The problem is in ruby red states (5.00 / 0) (#67)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:03:59 PM EST
    how do we ensure that those states don't play games with the Democratic process?

    Parent
    caucuses not good snapshot of pop vote (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by LHinSeattle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:56:11 PM EST
    too many voters can't take time off to go to them. Especially those pesky "low information" and lower income types, health care workers, service workers, disabled, etc.

    Make 'em all primaries. Mail-in voting allowed.

    Parent

    So, a caucus (none / 0) (#13)
    by Coral on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:25:56 PM EST
    would just be a way to count votes?

    Parent
    And a sure fire way (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    to have a lower number of votes cast than a primary.

    Parent
    Yes But If They Had To Use The Actual Number (none / 0) (#150)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:43:26 PM EST
    of people who attended as the popular vote then in a contested contest they would have less influence on the final result. Let's  say a mid size state held a caucus and 10,000 people attended they would only have 10,000 in popular vote. A smaller state that used a primary with 200,000 votes cast would have more influence on the selection. If we were lucky, that might push more states into having a primaries.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:27:07 PM EST
    Selecting a candidate is about (none / 0) (#32)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:38:58 PM EST
    more than just being "fair" and candidates that don't have tons of cash for TV wouldn't be able to compete - which basically takes us back to square one when all Democrats thought they had to do was to put an ad on TV and that the voters would line up for them.  I think we should go to regional primaries - eight - two per month - and kick off in February and end in May.

    Parent
    But cash would come (none / 0) (#44)
    by Coral on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:46:08 PM EST
    with success in the earlier primaries.

    Parent
    If you only have one primary day, (none / 0) (#49)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:51:09 PM EST
    what "earlier primaries" would you be refering to?

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#129)
    by madeinUSA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:49:01 PM EST
    sounds good to me but the problem we have is that 2 states were completely disqualified with everyone's agreement going in and now the rules want to be bent to favor one candidate over the other especially in a state where there was absolutely no contest. Unfair, IMO. This should not even be an issue. MI and FL should have been penalized with fewer delegates (as the republicans did) and the candidates should have been allowed to campaign. When there is no campaigning only the big name in politics could possibly have a chance of winning.

    As far as solutions for next time around, maybe the smaller states should go first and the bigger states can have ballots to pick their dates. You know write date son a piece of paper and toss in a bowl and let the state reps pick a ballot and that'll be their chosen day. I think the primary should be for more than a month that way people have a chance to get to know the candidates otherwise the process will be unfair and only the big machines could have a chance which is undemocratic as well!

    Parent

    Italy, which has a very difficult time (none / 0) (#182)
    by oculus on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:20:48 AM EST
    with government, has national elections on a single weekend; both days.  

    Parent
    National primary WEEK (none / 0) (#187)
    by splashy on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:12:56 PM EST
    So those that have to work or do other things regardless have a chance to vote.

    Perhaps one day off for everyone that is allowed off (usually 9 to 5ers), with a week for those that have to work to trickle in.

    Just because something is a holiday, doesn't mean everyone gets time off.

    Parent

    I think at the very least we could (none / 0) (#4)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:18:47 PM EST
    make Texas pick one rather than allowing them to count both.

    But as much as caucuses do appeal to me in a romantic sense, I think it would make much more sense to ask all the states to hold actual elections where people go into a voting booth and vote the same way they do in the general election.

    I don't, however, believe that all of the elections should be held on the same day.  Rolling out the state votes helps us more than it hurts us for a whole host of reasons - not the least of which is that candidates that are not "inevitable" get a shot at proving that they might actually be viable.

    I personally think that day (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    should be the 4th tuesday in April. That way you get to salvage most of the first session of Congress in the year before the election. You also have it late enough for states to conduct their statewide partisan primaries and don't encounter snow/ice worries.

    Parent
    We are (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:47:04 PM EST
    getting into a fairly traditional argument about state rights now.

    I don't believe that the DNC has the authority to change how states conduct their election business.

    The way to encourage states to stop caucuses is to provide money through the DNC to fund alternative methods.  I like the mail in system for states that don't have the money for primaries.  

    Seed the process.  The states apply for the money.

    THAT I think the DNC could attract money from voters all over to fund.

    I don't like the 4 states up front.  That really was the issue this year.  Everyone is sick of Iowa, frankly.  LOL*  I personally like the idea of rotating early primary schedules.  Let other states have a shot once in a blue moon.

    I don't like the idea of all votes on 1 day.  This year in particular we've gotten to vet Obama ONLY because it's been a long primary season.  Otherwise, he'd have stormed right in, and we wouldn't have had a good idea of what he is really about.

    Parent

    The DNC has the authority. (none / 0) (#113)
    by Iphie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:00:19 PM EST
    I don't believe that the DNC has the authority to change how states conduct their election business.
    The DNC does make the rules regarding how the nominee is chosen, i.e., delegate system, winner take all, popular vote, etc.

    How the election is administered is the purview of the states.

    Parent

    True enough (none / 0) (#157)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:59:26 PM EST
    and so long as they come up with a delegate count, how they get there is the business of their own party organization within that state.

    I think we could influence by offering seed money and a big push to eliminate caucuses.  Mail in voting isn't nearly as expensive as primaries.

    We could all rally behind that idea.

    Parent

    The Supreme Court determined that (none / 0) (#117)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:18:24 PM EST
    the political parties should have control over their nomination process and I agree with that decision whole-heartedly.  The fundamental problem with Florida and Michigan is not that the DNC has rules or that they are enforcing the rules.  The problem is that those state legislatures were determined to subvert the rules.  Politically-speaking those legislators screwed our party and not the other way around.  The voters are caught in the middle and that is a real problem, but just giving up and declaring a free-for-all won't solve this kind of problemin the future.  Ultimately, it will just create more.

    I mean seriously...  what would you be saying if the very Republican state of Utah decided to hold the Democratic Party primary for 2012 in 2009 and determined that only registered Republicans were eligible to vote in the primary?  You'd be saying, "There oughta be a rule!"  I mean that would be a pretty neat trick right?  Just go an declare that only Republicans are allowed to vote in any primary, but Democrats aren't.  I don't know why Karl Rove didn't think of that...  He came close by making most of the Bible belt states open-primary states - you wonder why we have all those Blue Dogs in Congress - well the open primaries make it very difficult for liberal Dems to compete even in a primary.

    As for primaries v. caucuses - we as a party do determine what kind of contests that we will recognize.  Whether or not the states that hold caucuses would consider chaning their systems would become a political dance, but I would be loathe to have to pay for state elections.  The states have a duty to offer their citizens access to our political process.

    If it is determined that elections are "too expensive" then we will have accepted a premise that takes us yet another step away from democracy in this country.  Besides if you really want to cut costs, printed paper ballots and pencils aren't that expensive - ditch the computers and we've reduced the costs considerably.

    Parent

    Perfect Solution! (none / 0) (#8)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:21:05 PM EST
    I guess, only one who is out of the "power group" could think intelligently without bias.

    I just want Donna Brazile out (none / 0) (#11)
    by ajain on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:50 PM EST
    Anything that takes her away from my tv screen is fine by me.

    Also, why does she keep getting invited to these shows as a commentator. She is clearly biased. I mean, even when she is pretending with all her might to be neutral I just can't believe her. Maybe its just me, but I had to get the impression that she is biased from somewhere and I think I got it watching her on CNN.

    I want her out of the process. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Iphie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    I don't care if she's on tv -- I can turn that off and it doesn't bother me anymore. I do care that she has any say in the process though, because even if I wanted to, I can't turn off her influence.

    Btw, has Donna Brazile ever been held accountable to any voters herself? Has she ever held elected office?

    Parent

    I had that on, in the background, too. (none / 0) (#21)
    by 1jpb on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:29:12 PM EST
    C-span is a wonderful refuge from the cable news garbage.  

    I've been big a C-span fan for decades.  But, now it's even better.  I use C-span as a home base, from which very short reconnaissance missions are launched to cable news (biz channels too) land on rare occasions.  Do I learn anything by having C-span on?  Not most of the time, but that is no different than the cable news, and the solace is wonderful.

    way too fair and logical a solution (none / 0) (#22)
    by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:29:16 PM EST
    I don't see the DNC going for it.

    I want to get rid of Iowa and New Hampshire (none / 0) (#23)
    by wasabi on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:29:28 PM EST
    I want to see 5 states represented from the South, West, Mountain, East and MidWest to vote on the same day, so we can do away with the influence of a single individual state.  After that, groups of states would vote every 3 weeks, the order to be decided well in advance by drawing straws.  No more Super Tuesday or Super-Duper Tuesday.  Every state can decide if they want an election or a caucus.  I want automatic runoff with every election/caucus.  The superdelegate percentage would be reduced to 10%.

    Since media is such a factor (none / 0) (#24)
    by Chimster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:30:33 PM EST
    is there a way to add to your reform a decision that allows the public to vote all at the same time? This way, states like Iowa and New Hampshire wouldn't have more power over other states in deciding who should be president.

    Let the candidates travel the nation and campaign just like they do now, but let everyone vote after they've been vetted for those six months. That sounds pretty fair.

    No (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:32:26 PM EST
    My proposal is to eliminate calendars and what not.

    Heck, you could even let Iowa and New Hampshire go first and then let every other state decide when they want their election and how they want to do it.

    When it is a popular vote count, then no one will even care about Iowa and NH. A smart candidate will skip them both.

    Parent

    I like the popular (none / 0) (#33)
    by DaytonDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:39:15 PM EST
    vote idea but it would not, imo, make the early states any less important. They are catered to now because they are first. In the new plan they have few popular votes, today they have few delegates. We would still have to break their stranglehold on the calendar.

    Parent
    I disagree (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:40:21 PM EST
    I think it completely marginalizes them.

    They become totally irrelevant.

    Parent

    you may be right (none / 0) (#38)
    by DaytonDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:43:06 PM EST
    I just don't see the difference between tiny popular votes and tiny pledged delegates as long as they control the calendar.

    Parent
    the psyche of ther popular vote (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:47:59 PM EST
    means you can NEVER think of an election as decided UNTIL  California, NY, Illinois, Florida, Ohio, PA and Texas have their say.

    By definition, Iowa and NH will not matter.

    Parent

    Which is why (none / 0) (#68)
    by Iphie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:04:02 PM EST
    all of the less populated states would fight such an idea tooth and nail. Same reason why they throw everything they've got at any suggestion to do away with the Electoral College.

    Parent
    Actually, there is an argument (none / 0) (#69)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:05:43 PM EST
    that the electoral college actually benefits big states. It involves the Banzhaf Power Index.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:12:52 PM EST
    So you think they want the Electoral College System for nomination selection?

    Really? Noo. I disagree with you on this one.

    Parent

    Me? (none / 0) (#90)
    by Iphie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:20:12 PM EST
    No, I don't think small states want the Electoral College System for the nomination -- but I think they hold onto it for the GE for the same reason that they would hold onto the delegate system for the nomination process -- they both allow for disproportionate power for smaller states, like IA and NH.

    I'm all for your suggestion of using the popular vote both for choosing our nominee and for the GE.

    Parent

    States were actually thinking (none / 0) (#48)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:49:45 PM EST
    about holding them in December of last year.  Don't you think it would be a bit of a drag if some state decided to schedule the Dem primary for 2012 in say 2009?  

    Parent
    Not going to happen (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:53:34 PM EST
    Why? Because if they can be first after Iowa and NH, as my proposal would allow (of course there could be 48 states going first in my scenario, which is fine by me), they will not care.

    Let Iowa go January 10 or so. Let NH go January or 20 or so.

    And then let EVERYONE go February 1 to May 1.

    They pick the day and the method.

    Allt hey have to do is count the votes.

    If they all finish February 1, then so be it.  

    Parent

    and while we are at it, lets make BTD the (none / 0) (#26)
    by athyrio on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:32:34 PM EST
    Chairman of the DNC.....He is the fairest man I know...

    My previous post on my recomendations to DNC (none / 0) (#30)
    by Saul on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:38:00 PM EST
        The DNC should seriously consider the following changes for future presidential nominations.

        Get rid of all super delegates

        Get rid of all caucuses voting formats

        Have only primaries as the only format

        Have only registered democrats vote in each state primary

        Have all the states vote on one single day.  I suggest the second Tuesday of May
        A super super Tuesday

        Have from May 1st to the date of the primary election date for all voters to vote early or absentee to include mail in ballots for any voter who would not be able to physically get to a voting precinct.

        All candidates would have from November of the previous year to May 15 to do all their campaigning.  That is 6 months of campaigning or 26.5 weeks.  They can pick where they want to campaign.

        Then it's completely over.  You then would probably have until June the 1st to get a complete and certified count of all the delegate count and the popular vote.  

        If no one candidates reaches the required delegate number then the winner will be chosen by who ever has the most popular vote count.  

        I know that may of these changes can only be done by each state but there should be a united effort to get every state that is not in the primary format to change to that format only and to agree to the other changes listed.

    Sounds great! (none / 0) (#39)
    by Chimster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:44:06 PM EST
    The only line I wondered about was "Have only registered democrats vote in each state primary". Couldn't we at least let the unaffilated vote?

    Parent
    Fine (none / 0) (#78)
    by Saul on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:13:46 PM EST
    but I remember the big controversy on republicans voting democrat in those states where you could in the primary but just to get the nominee they thought would be weaker in the general election but in the general election they would vote republican

    Parent
    Do any states have restrictions on (none / 0) (#45)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:46:29 PM EST
    how often you can change your party registration?
    This "democrat for a day" business is not good, IMO.
    If people change their registration, make it stick.
    Also, allow independents, but not Republicans.

    Since I would allow Open Primaries (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:48:37 PM EST
    my proposal says no restrictions period.

    Put the onus on the states.

    Parent

    Personally (none / 0) (#51)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:53:45 PM EST
    I think caucuses should be strongly discouraged.  After this year, the process has now been publicly revealed to be faulty.

    I would like to see closed primaries, with registration allowed up to a few days before the primary.  

    I would like a review of the delegate weighting system.  It doesn't make sense.

    And I would cut down the number of superdelegates.  It's been overused as a perk, apparently.  Who isn't a super delegate now?

    And I would keep the convention and delegate system.

    We're afraid of a convention.  Don't know why.  I think it could be exciting as heck.  But I like the idea of a convention to allow for changes.

    it's the obvious solution. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:54:06 PM EST
    (a) What's corrupt about the current nomination process? I don't mean stupid, error-prone, or undemocratic. I mean corrupt.

    (b) I don't see how you can call caucuses phony. They're a lot of things. They're against our principle of a secret ballot. They're annoying. They're sort of untransparent (while having the illusion of greater transparency, of course). But I don't think they're phony any more than our representative democracy is a "phony" democracy because it requires federal and state representatives. Or a union's decision making process is (apart from real, scandalous corruption) necessarily "phony" because it requires dues and often have no secret balloting. There isn't just one form of "true" democracy, democracy is just a method of having people control the government through a technical process, which may vary.

    (c) I think your solution is the obvious one, except I think one would obviously bar caucuses (my defense of them above is only about your definitions of them, not a defense of their desirability). It fixes all the problems and doesn't generate any news ones, that I can see. It standardizes state-to-state comparisons and permits non-propagandic tabulations of vote totals. It, as you note, nearly eliminates the jockeying for an early position. It allows for an absolutely correct way to divide the delegate votes (should the convention/delegate system remain in place).  

    Everything (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:55:08 PM EST
    But mostly the fact that some voters' votes count more than others.

    that is disgraceful and corrupt.

    Parent

    Today Dean denied that there (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by katiebird on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:57:41 PM EST
    was anything undemocratic about this nomination process.

    And considering the fact that even within states, some congressional districts are given more delegates than others -- that was a total lie.  And he looked uncomfortable as he said it.

    Still, no one called him on it.

    Parent

    Well... (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:20 PM EST
    ...then you would characterize the Federal Congress as a corrupt democratic body of legislature because it includes the Senate, which overweights the small states' representation?

    More of a rhetorical question than an actual one, but that's what I'm talking about. It's a system. A stupid, unfair one. But it's not corrupt.

    Parent

    I do (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:11:22 PM EST
    think the Senate as an institution is corrupt.

    But even there there is no comparison.

    The delegate allocation system is not some grand compromise for a greater good.

    It is cheap nonsense.

    you overreached with that one my friend.

    Parent

    No, I didn't overreach... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:19:51 PM EST
    I wasn't overreaching unless I was trying to trick you somehow. Like, if somehow I was bringing up the Senate hoping you'd fold on your definition of caucuses as corrupt, then I'd have erred.

    However, I said specifically it was to show what I was talking about. It was an illustration and not a comparison. And as an illustration it worked out well since you're saying you feel the Senate is corrupt in it's constitution, and so I know that your definition of "corrupt" is so different from mine that it's not going to be worthwhile playing a language game (what does "corrupt" mean?).

    Parent

    Yeah I agree. (none / 0) (#152)
    by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:44:19 PM EST
    Corrupt to me for example means the influence of money on the process such that it's about how candidates outraise one another and it's about the concentration of media such that polls are the determinator early on of who is considered viable and who is not. Both corrupt the Democratic message and the choice of candidates available to us. That would be where I would start to be more concerned with corruption- but that's not really touched on.

    Parent
    It is absolutely corrupt (none / 0) (#142)
    by jussumbody on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:18:54 PM EST
    When a small minority has disproportionate power over the majority, that is a recipe for corruption.  All of those farm subsidies that go to Archers Daniels Midland are corrupt.  The big money goes into those states to buy their votes.  The people of those small states get bought off with a few dollars, but the senators make out like bandits because they have power over spending throughout the country over which their constituents have little or no interest.

    I think Addison is a sock puppet for Ted Stevens.

    Parent

    Except that what BTD proposes (none / 0) (#153)
    by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:46:29 PM EST
    also guarantees greater influence of money and the concetrated media right? Since to run such a campaign would require more money not less and would have to rely more on big media, not less. I took a course on the advent of the modern political parties. It was a great course. It talked not just about the party system as we now know it, but what preceeded, and the law of unintended consequences. That seems to be the operative factor in all these 'easy' solutions.

    Parent
    HAhahaha... (none / 0) (#156)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:55:31 PM EST
    ...I get a 1 rating for saying that the Senate isn't corrupt as a result of its assigning two members per state. A sock puppet for "Ted Stevens." Yes, or the crafters of the Constitution, who designed the legislative system that way to counterbalance... oh, you know what, nevermind.

    If you've been sitting around, reading my posts, disagreeing, and hoping to 1-rate me for something, you could've picked better. If that wasn't the reason, and my comment on its own stirred you up enough to miss the point and rant about agricultural subsidies, that's pretty sad.

    Now, I don't care about ratings in the slightest, of course, except as a way for fools to prove their foolishness. But you went the extra mile and wrote a response so no ambiguity would remain.

    Context is king.

    Parent

    criss-crossing the country (none / 0) (#55)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:56:10 PM EST
    the back and forth is not energy or time efficient.  Regional primaries would be greener and less costly. Rotate regions every 4 years.

     

    Your (none / 0) (#71)
    by sas on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:08:12 PM EST
    proposal makes complete sense.

    Which means (and this gives me no pleasure) it will be lost on the Democrats.

    LOL (none / 0) (#84)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:17:15 PM EST
    Probably true!

    Parent
    Oh yes (none / 0) (#72)
    by sas on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:09:38 PM EST
    CLOSED primaries only - Democrats ONLY should pick the party nominee.

    Problems with 100% closed primaries... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:14:48 PM EST
    (a) When would the party registration deadline be? How long do these people have to be Democrats. Why that particular period?

    (b) My state, Virginia, has no party registration. What then? I don't want to have to pay dues or even register with the Democratic Party (I get enough junk mail as it is).

    (c) Personally I don't like this idea because it doesn't take into consideration either the differing levels of self-identification within states or among the different sort of people who almost always vote Democratic. I simply vote Democrat all the time, as opposed to defining myself politically by that party. I don't WANT to register as a Democrat, but I'm a pretty sure-thing voter. You sure it's a good idea to devalue that kind of voice in every state, North and South and Mountain West? I'm not.

    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#74)
    by sas on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:11:06 PM EST
    wasn't it you who figured a delegate from CA was worth around 10000 votes and one from Montana (or someshere like that, maybe Wyoming)was worth only a few?

    Well (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:11:47 PM EST
    I wrote about it.

    Parent
    This is the first election in which (none / 0) (#82)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:16:00 PM EST
    I have paid real attention and understand how the primary system was set up. I think that is because it is the first time I can remember it being split and going so long.  But the current system reminds of our welfare system or any other government system. It is not holistic, it is a series of band-aids or patch work, sometimes to fix a problem, sometimes, but rarely, designed to prevent a problem. In other words, it is really just a mish mash of crap.  I think BTD's solution is a good one.  I would like to see it as 5 regional primaries over a 5 month period or less.  No caucuses.  The democratic party leadership inherited this crappy system but they made it worse by overpenalizing FL and MI and not accepting the very valid point that IA and NH had a chokehold on the system.

    Want the states to be responsible? (none / 0) (#93)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:22:01 PM EST
    Good Grief!  Look what happened to Florida in 2000.

    The state took absolute control.  Don't forget Katherine Harris was the state.

    I don't think so.

    Definitely... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Cal on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:22:27 PM EST
    NO more caucuses (in my best Joan Crawford "no more wire hangers!" voice).  No more open primaries, either.  

    And definitely no more Donna Braziles.

    A whole redesign is needed (none / 0) (#96)
    by LCaution on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:23:34 PM EST
    Anglachel had a couple of great posts the end of March on a redesigned primary system.

    One of the reasons I would like to see this race go to the Convention is that the entire primary system is clearly not designed either to choose the best candidate or to include a majority of Democrats in the selection process, and I think the only way to force a major overhaul is to go right up to and over the brink of disaster: a brokered convention.

    Anglachel's post:
    http://anglachelg.blogspot.com/2008/03/wonk-primary-vote.html

    Hmm, let's try to work out the kinks (none / 0) (#98)
    by dmk47 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:24:03 PM EST
    I'm for this in principle. To make it work though, there would need to be a single standard of eligibility across states --- either all open primaries, all closed, or all hybrid (but the same hybrid in each case). Otherwise, the popular votes in states using different standards of eligibility would be incommensurate.

    OMG - I don't know where to start... (none / 0) (#105)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:35:02 PM EST
    Such myopia around presidential selection.

    The state party organizations exist for much more than selecting a presidential candidate every 4 years and you want to change all the rules to accomplish one single task.

    How about starting out by trying to establish what the goals are for revising the methodology, mesh them with the goals of the various state party organizations and THEN you can start to revise the selection process.

    If there is one thing that I have agreed with Howard Dean, it's the fact that Democrats put too much emphasis on presidential selections and they should be involved in local partitions...getting quality candidates at city/county/state levels, being competitive everywhere at every level.

    Clearly the past few nomination cycles have been controlled by fund raising and nothing you are proposing is going to alter that, so in the end, your suggestions do not change the overall dynamic.

    Regional Primaries (none / 0) (#108)
    by JoeCHI on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    Regional primaries, one every month.  Popular vote winner takes all.

    The argument against (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:49:06 PM EST
    The counter-argument is that your idea gives too many advantages to brand name recognized candidates who already have a built in support network within the party.

    It would eradicate a Momentum/Movement dynamic from the process.  You get that one win in an Iowa caucus and you're an instant front runner.

    Which is great cause I think movements make horrible choices.  They are motivated by hysteria and anger, and they show up at caucusses and filibuster the process.

    Hey.  I like the idea.  It would be best for the party.


    All these arguments sound great (none / 0) (#111)
    by pie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:49:47 PM EST
    but, cynical as I am, I figure the powers-that-be will figure out a way to game the system anyway.

    OTOH, this primary has been enlightening, but not necessarily in a painful way.  It's gotten more people involved in the process than have been in a long time.  I don't expect the next president to solve every new one generated by Bush, but making some necessary 180's would be fabulous.

    I don't like caucuses, because it shuts out people who would normally feel comfortable voting behind a curtain, physically or emotionally.  That was definitely highlighted this time around.  

    The media are also a problem and getting worse.

    How do we get away (none / 0) (#126)
    by athyrio on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:46:32 PM EST
    from media manipulation?? Both R's and D's seem to be into that, and I wish we had rules to get more protection from it....

    Why this idea would be rejected: (none / 0) (#131)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:50:04 PM EST
    Because it's smart, makes a lot of sense and it empowers the voters.  Now if we could get all candidates to debate Douglas/Lincoln style that would be TRULY democratic.

    Ah, one can dream.

    Well... (none / 0) (#136)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:59:10 PM EST
    ...if only someone would propose a debate that was actually like the ones Lincoln and Douglas had, that'd be a good first step.

    Parent
    Has anybody noticed... (none / 0) (#138)
    by jussumbody on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:06:06 PM EST
    that the same people who wail about exit polls on election day, EVEN FOR PRIMARIES, that they somehow disenfranchise them because "their vote won't count" if the race has already been called, are/have been often the same people calling for Clinton to bow out of the remaining primaries, before many states even got a chance to vote in the the primaries?  So they want to penalize the states that held their primaries too late, but they also want to penalize the states that tried to vote too early.

    I had lots of fun at my first caucus here in Texas (who knew we even had them?), but that is the last time I ever want to do that.  Still, I don't want the primaries decided by popular vote if the general election is decided by the electoral college, especially when places like Texas have open primaries that lead to Republicans trying to foist the weakest candidate on us.

    Each state's delegates should be weighted according to the likelihood that that state will deliver electoral votes and maybe congressional seats to the Democratic party.  Therefore Texas's delegation should have observer status until we are a two party state again.

    BTD (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:12:35 PM EST
    Overall I think this is a good idea. However, if you are going to have caucuses and primaries you are still going to have problems with the popular vote total because of the (agreeably) undemocratic nature of caucuses.

    Anyway, this is what I would suggest.

    1. Keep the delegates but make the states winner take all.

    2. The states that decide to have caucuses instead of primaries suffer a 50% penalty in delegates. For example, if your state has 50 delegates and you decide to have a caucus you now only get 25 delegates. I see this as a carrot and stick approach to the total elimination of caucuses.

    3. Once EVERY state has gone to a primary mode, then you can switch to the popular vote count for the nomination.

    What do you think?

    Could not agree more (none / 0) (#144)
    by Bill W STL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:20:46 PM EST
    I cannot understand why the caucus system is allowed to continue.  It is the most undemocratic way of selecting a candidate you could conceive.

    How does this change the influence of money? (none / 0) (#148)
    by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:39:53 PM EST


    There is no easy solution to the problem (none / 0) (#154)
    by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    Because we live in a 50 state federal system with a large population and our electoral process is based on money and concentrated media. You are simply changing the nature of the problem rather than addressing the underlying problem.

    O/T but CNN is carrying Wright's speech live. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Teresa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:00:35 PM EST


    What do you expect from Tom Hayden (none / 0) (#165)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:20:01 PM EST
    one of the Chicago 7 that almost wrecked the Democratic convention of his time? Twice defeated for the Senate in California; Ex-husband of Jane Fonda who also supports Obama?

    Tom (none / 0) (#168)
    by AnninCA on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:25:46 PM EST
    is an LA twit who we re-elect, but not so much as he can really influence much.  :)

    Parent
    There were several "biographies" (none / 0) (#170)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:38:18 PM EST
    released in time for her announcement to run.  There were many allegations that were publicly debunked by people who were supposedly involved.  Alll I can say that is Ken Starr could have found something to use against her, it would already have been out.

    Parent
    "Obawha"? (none / 0) (#183)
    by Cream City on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:56:42 AM EST
    We don't do the nicknames here.

    Parent
    Since we are talking about reforms (none / 0) (#166)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:23:03 PM EST
    of the nominating process, how about the people nominating the Vice president as well?  Candidates can specifically run for Vice President and the people will at least have a say on who the Vice president will be, not just the choice of one person? I'm sure a mechanism for this can be worked out.

    What's the big deal? (none / 0) (#174)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:17:36 PM EST
    My brother worked for the National Lawyers Guild defending Black Panthers across the country in the 70's...but they weren't planting bombs.

    The Black Panthers were targeted by the FBI and arrested not for what they had done but for what the FBI was afraid they would do.

    Nothing incongruent at all except for Tom Hayden's lack of critical thinking skills in support of his candidate.

    I love hypotheticals (none / 0) (#180)
    by pattonbt on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:00:48 AM EST
    My biggest concern is the calendar.

    I want a truncated calendar so that factions can not develop too deeply as they have this year.  Nothing has dismayed me more than the hate that now exists amongst good democrats.

    So as far as caucuses, primaries, superdelegates, delegates, popular vote, etc. I think thats too much ground for me to try and cover here and I dont know if I have a particular view or expertise to opine on that.  All I really care is that whatever it is it is followed.

    But as someone whos state never got a say, Im tickled this year that all will get a say, as I said, I mind that its over such a long period where factions have been allowed to grow.

    So maybe a calendar something like this.  

    No active campaigning anywhere 2 months before the first primary (how that would be achieved I do not know).

    Choose a date (say Feb 1) for the first couple primaries (say 2 to 4 primaries).  As said above by someone I forgot (my apologies to you) let the first 2 to 4 primaries be based on those states that had the highest dem versus republican ratio of votes in the last general election.

    Three weeks after that have a second round of primaries with a few states (maybe 4 to 6).  States this time as picked by the DNC for whatever reasons they see fit.

    Then three weeks after that open up a 2 month (or 1.5 month) window where the remaining states can go whenever the heck they want, but they have to set their date 1 year (or some such time) in advance so reasonable planning can take place.

    If there are supers, they can not commit to a candidate before the final large primary window opens up and must commit within 2 weeks after the final date of the large window.

    The convention gets held 2 months after the end of the large primary window.

    As long as the calendar is tight I think we can avoid a lot of the fractricide that is going on.  The problem with a short process though is it weighs name recognition, money and machine backing quite heavily.  But that doesnt mean a no name this election cycle who loses wont get a chance the next time when their name recognition should theoretically be much higher.

    Im sure my take has holes, but thats what I got.

    Needless to say, I am very curious to see how this gets done in the end.

    Voting Method (none / 0) (#184)
    by Brian Puccio on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:18:04 AM EST
    Popular vote isn't the brightest idea either. The Condorcet method is a good option.

    Same day (none / 0) (#185)
    by cmugirl on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:57:14 AM EST
    I don't think a same day primary across the country is a good idea.  For instance, if we had a nationwide primary on February 20th, for instance, and Obama had won, where would the party be when all this stuff about his started trickling out - we'd be left with a weakened nominee.

    I am a strong proponent, however, of rotating, regional elections. Or start alphabetically *Election year 1 - Alabama - Delaware" go first, year 2 "Florida - Illinois" go first, etc.

    Bah! (none / 0) (#186)
    by BethanyAnne on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:11:13 PM EST
    Came to the party late, this time :-)  Wish I had stopped by when the discussion was fresh.

    First off, my instinct is to like this.  I like having people count, and I like keeping the process short, to a degree.

    But, I really see some merit to the arguement that folk outside of a major population center would basically not count in this system.  It also enshrines anyone who can raise the money to go on the air quickly.

    My favored alternative, I forget where I saw it first, was to do 4 rounds of decisions.  1 a month, perhaps.  Groups of 12 states, by population, small states first.  Gives less well-known candidates time to be seen, gives the states a bit of equality (population of small states is balanced by their earlier positioning), and gets the process up and over within a reasonable time.

    Them's my thoughts :-)
    Beth

    Caucuses - no! SDs- si! (none / 0) (#188)
    by 1950democrat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:29:03 PM EST
    Get rid of caucuses. But keep the Superdelegates -- they're what can save our ass when someone games the system.

    Whatever the system is, someone will figure how to game it and get some sort of metric 'lead' for some bozo that does not represent the Dem base and cannot win in November. The only way to get a realistic and timely decision is with a large group of unpledged, wild-card people who can tip the balance at the last minute if necessary.  SDs are people recently elected (members of Congress, Senate, Governors) and elders like Gore and Carter. We might get rid of SDs like Brazile who were never elected by the public. But some group of SDs is needed to keep the process in balance with the electorate who have actually voted people  into office over the past several years.

    What's more important, is reducing the power of people like Dean and Brazile (deciding which states can go first) -- and deciding whose votes will be counted! The current mess is only partly because of 'rules' -- but greatly because of Brazile's RULINGS that did NOT follow the actual DNC rules.

    According to Craig Crawford's site, by the actual DNC rules, Obama should get NO delegates in FL because he clearly and deliberately broke the 'no campaigning' rule (running cable ads there). And Hillary should get at least half her delegates (the stipulated punishment for early primary).