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Wednesday Dinnertime Open Thread

Here's an open thread for all topics. And yes, we'll have another later for Gov. Sarah Palin's speech.

The open mic fiasco, what some pundits, including Republicans, really think of Sarah Palin. TPM has the transcript.

< Sarah Palin: More Spiro Agnew Than Dick Cheney | Show Us the Proof >
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    Hillary DNC Speech on iTunes (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by JimWash08 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:21:55 PM EST
    Hey all:

    I'm coming out from my self-imposed TL Timeout to let all you Hillary supporters know that her DNC speech is now available FREE as a podcast on iTunes.

    Also available is Bill Clinton's DNC speech.

    They are both available in video and audio-only.

    Speeches to keep, for sure.

    A new National Poll from SUSA on Palin (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:26:23 PM EST
    here.

    The Leftosphere is overplaying its hand on her. Stop!

    fascinating (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:30:03 PM EST
    Her positives are as high as Biden's, negative just slightly higher than his, but you would think she would be in the gutter after the last week.

    Parent
    What does it tell you that she isn't? (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:31:53 PM EST
    Camp Obama has seen these numbers, which is why they're not going crazy over Palin.

    I just wish others would get the memo.

    Parent

    Has the Obama campaign issued (none / 0) (#32)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:49:12 PM EST
    any statement(s) urging their supporters to back off on Palin? Has the campaign made any statements about the treatment of Palin in the MSM?

    I'm asking these question in all sincerity; I haven't been following this stuff as closely as some others may have.

    Parent

    Yes... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:51:24 PM EST
    They have to their supporters.  Not to the media.  

    Parent
    Where/when/how and (none / 0) (#84)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:17:04 PM EST
    what did Obama/Biden say to their supporters about backing off on Palin? Also, who said it on their behalf?

    A LINK would be great, I haven't had a chance to read it elsewhere.

    Parent

    A quick example (none / 0) (#99)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:24:56 PM EST
    here.

    There's more where that came from, which you can find yourself.

    Parent

    Both Obama and Biden have said to STFU, (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:53:39 PM EST
    but some "supporters" won't listen.

    Parent
    I'm not an arm of the Democratic Party (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:20:36 PM EST
    I don't tell Obama how to conduct his campaign and he doesn't tell me how to oppose a candidate I perceive to be a threat.

    He can't criticize her. I can and will.

    All he said was don't criticize her for her family issues and I agree with that and haven't done so. Even in lifting the ban, all I said was given her making it an issue, I can't justify making it off topic. But all of my criticisms of her have been on her record, lack of record, the issues, including her lack of preparedness and qualifications to assume the presidency if the need arises, and my belief that electing McCain/Palin is handing the Government over to the radical right and evangelicals.

    Parent

    I personally wouldn't have written about (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:26:51 PM EST
    the issue the way you have, but I don't think your writing is the problem.

    I'm talking more about the right side of Daily Kos and other similar places.

    Parent

    Because their hate has overtaken their (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Brookhaven on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:24:53 PM EST
    humanity and even if they have not a wit of humanity, their common sense or perhaps that's just too much to ask from some Obama mouthpieces.

    They are in the hate zone and once you are there and with others, group think and the mob mentality kicks in and when that happens there is no going back.  Deja vu all over again.  It's the same exact thing that happened with HRC.  Shame on them all.

    Parent

    Questioning her experience, her POV on issues... (none / 0) (#179)
    by NvlAv8r on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:38:41 PM EST
    How her "maverick" image is BS, how she loves earmarks despite railing against them, how she took a town with zero debt to millions in the red?  Sorry, it ain't "hate zone".  That is just a right wing talking point to beat back scrutiny.

    I'm sure we will see people bring up mostly phoney "sexist" coverage in the coming weeks.

    Parent

    Can I impose on you long enough (none / 0) (#190)
    by standingup on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:01:30 PM EST
    to get your opinion on this coverage?

    Parent
    I hope I live to see the day (none / 0) (#196)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:20:24 PM EST
    when phony sexist coverage is as derided as phony racist coverage.

    Parent
    I read he told (none / 0) (#57)
    by LatinoVoter on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:04:27 PM EST
    his campaign to simmah down but nothing to his supporters. I thought he'd blast them all an e-mail or a 3AM text telling them to simmah down but nothing that I've seen.

    Parent
    You've not been listening to the public speeches (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:07:49 PM EST
    Like most of America. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by LatinoVoter on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:18:04 PM EST
    Care to site what he has said in his public speeches? Do all the Obama "supporters" who are talking about Palin and her family on the blogs, forums, message groups etc listen to his public speeches?

    If what I've watched unfold across the net on non political blogs then the answer to my question is a resounding "NO."

    Parent

    Distance, disown, disavow. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:09:34 PM EST
    That's all he needs to do.

    It's not like Obama hasn't done it before.

    Parent

    Wow....that's sobering (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by ap in avl on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:32:21 PM EST
    I'm out of my element when discussing the merits of the various polling sources, but just looking at the opinions of Obama vs McCain with regard to their VP choice makes me think that hopes that Palin will sink McCain are overblown.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:35:48 PM EST
    Right. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Jeannie on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:27:16 PM EST
    Biden is an oh-so-boring choice and Palin is an interesting choice. Now IF Obama had chosen Hillary, this would really be a race. Would McCain have still chosen Palin? Or did he just pick her because of Obama's boring choice?

    Parent
    If O had chosen H (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:32:54 PM EST
    OMG that would have been fun.

    Parent
    There is no way... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Thanin on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:00:19 PM EST
    mccain would have picked a woman if Hillary had been on the Dem ticket.

    Parent
    But then again.... (none / 0) (#146)
    by Jeannie on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:02:09 PM EST
    a boring man would have been a disaster and a sure loser. Two boring men?? And how many exciting Rs are there?

    Parent
    No it isn't (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by bluegal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:10:38 PM EST
    Look at the independents. McCain cannot win this election without overwhelming support of Independents. It is a fact.  Independents are split on their opinion on her which means that she is risky.

    Gallup has a very good write up about this today and it is basically confirmed by this poll.

    Palin=good for Repub. base and conserv. Rep. women

    Palin= bad for independents, soft democrats(McCain needs those to win)

    McCain can't win without independents and she doesn't help him with them.  She's basically energizing the base which is what I expected. She's doing nothing more.

    Parent

    That must be the plan (none / 0) (#123)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:38:58 PM EST
    Pick Palin to energize the base -- he can't win without that. Then emphasize his own "moderateness" to try to get independents. It wouldn't work the other way; if he'd picked a moderate more to his liking, he'd go down to defeat because he'd have no way to get the base out. I think he did what he thought he needed to do to win.

    Parent
    Actually in the poll cited... (none / 0) (#180)
    by NvlAv8r on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:40:36 PM EST
    Palin has helped shore up the Dem base.

    Thanks McSame!

    Parent

    Not to start a war but (none / 0) (#195)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:19:46 PM EST
    Isn't calling a sitting US Senator "McSame" disrespectful? I am asking because on this site calling name or distorting people name is verboten (which I wholeheartedly agree).

    Or has that changed?

    Parent

    How can more people "not know enough" (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:34:59 PM EST
    about Joe Biden than Sarah Palin?

    Parent
    Most people are ignorant (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:36:57 PM EST
    My lord, I don't share that opinion, but (none / 0) (#51)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:01:09 PM EST
    If that's what you think of the electorate, surely you can put it in more tactful, and politically constructive, terms than: "most people are ignorant".

    That kind of loose talk gets Dems in trouble with a lot of people, maybe even "most people".

    Parent

    It's the media, not the "people". (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:08:12 PM EST
    Outside of the infomaniacs, people get what their media choices give them.  If the people are ignorant, it's because the media helps them to be that way.

    As I cracked once to a commenter on dKos "There are people out there who probably know what the latest news is on Ms Spears."  and they promptly told me exactly what the latest Spears gossip was, brilliantly proving my point.  I have to page past a top ten headlines to read my email.  It's more likely to list the latest crime or celebrity scandal than a politician's vote or speech.

    Parent

    I'm sorry you don't like my tone (none / 0) (#56)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:04:03 PM EST
    It comes with the package.

    Parent
    How about "not well-informed" (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    on the background of Sen. Biden?  

    Parent
    That has the virtue of also being true (none / 0) (#102)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:27:13 PM EST
    And there you have it... (none / 0) (#117)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:33:43 PM EST
    Communication comes down to transmission and reception of information.

    I started teaching, in higher education, 20 years ago and, initially, I was quite attached to my shoot-from-the-hip and mince-no-words style.

    However, I learned, the hard way, that if I actually wanted to be an EFFECTIVE communicator, I had to modify my tone and style in order to maximize reception of the message. I'm no fan of Ronald Reagan, but he understood that much better than most politicians.

    *Still on the afternoon of 9/11/01, I walked into a classroom and said: "I think we outta go BIBLICAL on their ass and turn the other cheek".

    Parent

    Thats pretty much... (none / 0) (#148)
    by Thanin on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:02:48 PM EST
    one of the more hilarious quotes regarding 9/11.

    Parent
    Well, I didn't plan on saying that... (none / 0) (#154)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:11:18 PM EST
    It just flew out of my mouth, like I was channeling, Jesus and Ghandi and Quentin Tarantino.

    I believe it was a character in Pulp Fiction who first turned that type of phrase, when he was about to commence torturing somebody: "I'm gonna go medieval on your ass".

    Parent

    Whether YOU think they're ignorant or not (none / 0) (#129)
    by rdandrea on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:44:06 PM EST
    They all vote.  We're all equal on election day.
    Next time you get stuck behind some mutant in the checkout line at the grocery store, remember that he/she gets exactly as many votes as you do.

    I have been doing local elections for more than 20 years.  There are no ignorant voters.  Only voters.

    Parent

    She's risky with Independents (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by bluegal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM EST
    This confirms Gallups finding. She's helped with Republicans but is a wash among democrats and independents.

    Notice that Independents are split about their opinions of her and how it reflects on John McCain.  In order for John McCain to win, he has to win independents and not just tie Obama because there are more dems than repubs this time.

    Wait until those independents learn her views on the issues.  This would be good news if there were more R's than D's this time around. Simply tying with Obama among Independents is not going to win the election for McCain.

    Parent

    Many independent (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Jeannie on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:32:35 PM EST
    women will associate with her. Perhaps they will associate more with her life than her views and opinions. And we have yet to see if her far right personal opinions will drive her political opinions and the things she promotes. This doesn't appear to have happened in Alaska.

    Parent
    Obama up in state polls (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:11:53 PM EST
    Obama is up 1 pt in OH.  Back to early levels in Minnesota (no Pawlenty) and strong in Iowa.  McCain down some in NV.  Looks like Obama is fine in state polls.

    Parent
    It's not Palin who's doing it (none / 0) (#81)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:15:03 PM EST
    That much should be clear by now.

    Parent
    Should really look... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Oje on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:40:54 PM EST
    at Dems plus Inds, and Mod plus Libs, I should think  On one issue, scrutiny, there does seem to be agreement on too much vs. too little.

    Kind of funny, the way Republicans are hammering northeastern liberals, that Northeast and Midwest are the two regions that are most likely to think that there has been too much scrutiny of Palin!

    Parent

    In one respect... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Oje on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:50:21 PM EST
    however, the fervor is may be winning self-described Moderates on the Palin as Asset (38%) v. Liability (49%) measure, and the reflection on McCain measure, poorly (51%) v. well (37%).

    Also, independents more respectful of Biden pick than Palin pick.

    Parent

    Look at the incomes (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:59:00 PM EST
    Looks like those over 40k are more disapproving of Palin.  I think one of the reasons the talking heads said Palin was picked was to go after the working class.  That indicator suggests that may be possible.

    Parent
    Oh yeah, but.. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Oje on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:07:36 PM EST
    the under $40k seem to approve of Palin more than Biden on both Asset-Liability and Well-Poor Reflection.... These income differences may be residuals of education differences.  

    The income stuff says to me that the (educated) blogger reactions have not spoken to the interests or concerns of working / lower class voters very well.

    Parent

    Question about polls (none / 0) (#30)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:47:28 PM EST
    andgarden, when the poll breaks down demographics do they weight the size of the demographic?

    In other words, if the 18-30 age group is:
    48% Obama
    46% McCain

    And, the age groups 65+ is:
    43% Obama
    49% McCain

    The second age group is a larger demographic, so is that factored into the ALL percentages?

    Thanks!

    Parent

    Traditionally, they weight to the census (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:57:39 PM EST
    Wrong. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:49:34 PM EST
    Check the numbers in the Moderate and Independent columns.

    Parent
    Why don't you? (none / 0) (#40)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:52:55 PM EST
    I Did... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:57:18 PM EST
    That's why I know Moderates overwhelmingly think Biden was a good choice that reflects well on Obama.  And that they think just about the exact opposite about about Palin and McCain.  

    Parent
    Wrong on the second part (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:58:14 PM EST
    At best, they're split on the question.

    Parent
    A Fifteen Point Difference... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:07:44 PM EST
    amongst Moderates isn't particularly evenly split.    

    Anyways though, the numbers are much more informative when you look past that first column.  And the numbers here generally agree with the numbers from the rest of the polls out there- undecided voters and and independents aren't a big fan of the pick.  

    Parent

    She isn't breaking McCain, even after (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:11:24 PM EST
    time to move back to hitting McCain.

    Parent
    Exactly! (none / 0) (#77)
    by bluegal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:13:13 PM EST
    I'm feeling more confident as this confirmed my suspicions.

    She is big with the base and no one else.  She is seen as very risky among Independents.

    Parent

    That assessment may be premature (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:17:58 PM EST
    Wait until end of this week, after most people get to hear and see her, then I think we can all judge the real impact (in any direction) she will have.

    I think everyone is too busy trying to read crystal balls, let reality catch up a little.

    Parent

    Yep. (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:22:16 PM EST
    Very very big with the base.  90-10% they think she's a good choice.  Better than what Biden gets from Democrats/Liberals.  That huge approval amongst conservatives skews the rest of the numbers, making it appear (to those not looking past the top of the poll) that she's doing well, when in fact she's doing quite poorly amongst the people who will largely be deciding this election, and who's minds aren't already made up.

    Parent
    don't be too sure just yet (none / 0) (#94)
    by demchick on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:22:40 PM EST
    These polls factor in a convention bounce and also people don't know her yet. The fact that she has not tanked in the polls given what has been being said about her since Friday...should be very worrying.

    VERY.

    Parent

    confident? (none / 0) (#96)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:23:16 PM EST
    Are you hoping she and McCain win?

    Parent
    She supports Obama. That is what she is (none / 0) (#104)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:27:44 PM EST
    confident about. (Just answering in case she had to leave.)

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#111)
    by bluegal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:31:56 PM EST
    for clarifying that for me.  Yes, I'm confident about Obama/Biden.

    I have spoken with several former Hillary supporters who are insulted by Palin and were wondering why he didn't pick someone like Fiorina or Hutchinson.

    They aren't impressed with Palin and think she is too far right.

    As one described to me, "she looks like she would steal your husband." Ouch.

    Parent

    Nasty. (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Jeannie on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:41:23 PM EST
    And that is the problem. The insults towards Palin have brought out all the Democrats who were hugely insulted about the insults against Hillary. Double insults against women. And even if one disagrees with Palin's stands on the issues - they want to be with her in solidity for women in general.
    If you weren't insulted by the insults against Hillary - these insults won't affect you.

    Parent
    Hmmm.. (none / 0) (#110)
    by demchick on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:31:34 PM EST
    CBS News poll finds 60% of voters still say they're undecided or don't know enough about Palin to form an opinion about her

    Parent
    I'll have to disagree again. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Faust on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:11:15 PM EST
    I don't like the intensity of the frenzy myself, but it's too early to say that the hands are being overplayed on either side. Heck the narratives are changing every 12 hours. This could still go either way. I do have the sense that this has escalated into a very strange game of chicken.

    Just one example from that poll: 50% say that the story is getting too much attention, but 44% percent say the ammount of coverage is either too little or just right. 6% don't know (or don't care more like :P ) That's hardly a strong inditement against the current coverage volume.

    I agree that the frenzy is too intense, that the potential for backlash is very real, but there is also potential for this to grind on. Lots of variables are in play here.

    Parent

    Interesting internals (none / 0) (#90)
    by indiependy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:20:11 PM EST
    Seeing that they would have:

    28% conservative, 40% moderate, but only 18% liberal

    37% from the South vs 23% west, 22% midwest, 18% NE

    it would seem a pretty friendly audience for the GOP


    Parent

    The question asked for (none / 0) (#188)
    by Grace on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:51:42 PM EST
    McCain versus Obama was not "Who would you vote for?"

    It was "If you were placing a bet today, would you bet that Barack Obama will be elected President?  Or John McCain will be elected President?"

    To me, that doesn't ask who someone is going to vote for.  That's asking who they think will win.  

    Possibly, people are voting for McCain but think Obama will win -- and vice versa.  I think the wording of the question is strange.  

    Parent

    That's not the question I'm interested in (none / 0) (#194)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:16:43 PM EST
    Excerpts from Palin's speech (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by JAB on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:34:45 PM EST
    Link

    On her experience as a public servant:
    "I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town. I was just your average hockey mom, and signed up for the PTA because I wanted to make my kids' public education better. When I ran for city council, I didn't need focus groups and voter profiles because I knew those voters, and knew their families, too. Before I became governor of the great state of Alaska, I was mayor of my hometown. And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves. I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a `community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities."

    On why she is going to Washington, D.C.:
    "I'm not a member of the permanent political establishment. And I've learned quickly, these past few days, that if you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone. But here's a little news flash for all those reporters and commentators: I'm not going to Washington to seek their good opinion - I'm going to Washington to serve the people of this country."

    On John McCain:
    "Here's how I look at the choice Americans face in this election. In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change."


    I am ashamed to admit (none / 0) (#25)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:38:23 PM EST
    that i laughed out loud about the comm organizing line.  It is a very good line.  I hope she messes up on her timing or something because that line is going to make the crowd go crazy.  Unfortunately, the dems going at her so hard on experience asked for this line!

    I hope the rest of her speech tanks.

    Parent

    This is very good!! (none / 0) (#41)
    by befuddledvoter on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:53:20 PM EST
    I'm always appreciative of politicians who (none / 0) (#44)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:56:44 PM EST
    started out on their city council. That is where the action is. The city council and the county council have a much more immediate effect on my life than national politicians. That appeals to me as someone who is very involved in my neighborhood and community issues.

    But Palin has only had jobs where she could either make laws for other people or execute laws and policies over other people. Community organizers have to work with multitudes of people in order to get them to sign onto projects. They work with unions, community groups and individuals. They are tasked with recognizing leadership qualities in some of those individuals and mentoring them into being organizers as well. Finally, organizers have to be able to negotiate legally-binding contracts with local governments and business interests.

    A lot of people don't have a clue about what is involved in being a community organizer -- Sarah Palin is one of those people.

    I can't wait for the debates. Palin and McCain will be forced to talk about issue and policies whether they like it or not. I just hope that Obama's team is going to work him hard on debate prep. Halting speech and lots of "um"s is not going to cut it.

    Parent

    Thank you! n/t (none / 0) (#59)
    by bluegal on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:06:33 PM EST
    Debate (none / 0) (#67)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:09:12 PM EST
    I must admit that I am looking forward to the debate between Palin and Biden.

    I have always found Biden to be a shifty windbag - and slightly nutty.

    Palin has, from what I have seen, a kind of attractive energy.

    I don't think Biden will be able to just coast by with his usual weird grin.

    Issues? What issues? Biden is a hawk. He is not much on civil liberties. Palin - probably the same. So it will be a matter of feeling and personal energy.

    My point is that people who think Biden is way more intelligent and will wipe Palin out in a debate might be in for the same kind of shock that we experienced when the sighing great debater, Gore, got absolutely nowhere in the debates with the idiot Bush.

    Parent

    Politics is perception. (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Mshepnj on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:44:44 PM EST
    Biden is perceived to be a fightin' liberal, regardless of his more complex legislative record.

    Palin is perceived to be a Buchananite conservative whatever her actual record.

    I think they will play the roles assigned to them in any debate, but the trouble for Joe is that while he's more into the grey area (necessary for someone trying to pass legislation) rather than black and white, anything he says has the potential to be perceived as less authentic  than the straight shootin' conservatism of Palin.

    In this year, with the economy in a bad place and people tired of the war and the arrogance of the current regime, I don't know if Palin's social conservative message works as well on "Reagan Democrats" as it might in better times, but I really think it's a mistake to underestimate her potential appeal to small town Americans.

    Parent

    I have a sneaky suspicion (none / 0) (#167)
    by Grace on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:24:00 PM EST
    that the debate between Biden and Palin will be "fun."  I don't know why particularly except for the fact that I think both of these candidates are quick to laugh and good with jokes.  

    She may end up being more aggressive than he is since she has more to prove.  

    Parent

    as someone who has (none / 0) (#76)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:13:08 PM EST
    done community organizing, I agree with your description.  But you have to admit, just the fact that you or Obama or someone has to go into all this explanation to justify co as experience to be president means that dems overplayed "she has no experience" card. The line in her speech will be a winner. It might be her only one, I am hoping for that, but a good line is a good line.

    Parent
    My bottom line on the subject is (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:28:34 PM EST
    that neither community organizing nor being a mayor of a small town qualifies anyone to be president. But all cumulative experience in public service should be considered as applicable.

    Beyond that, experience alone won't do it. Judgment counts for a lot. And then there are the stands on issues, which are of paramount importance to me.

    Next week, after the bluster of the conventions is over, the bluster of real campaigning will begin. I think the McCain/Palin hot air balloon is going to burst before November 4th, but, until then, the salivating media hounds will be following them around like puppy dogs.

    Parent

    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:33:16 PM EST
    Eh (none / 0) (#87)
    by nell on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:18:04 PM EST
    I worked as a community organizer and I don't think it qualifies one for the Presidency anymore than being a member of the PTA...fundamentally, they are both about organizing groups of people to improve a community. I would liken her PTA experience to his community organizing, and her work on the city council/mayor of a small town to Obama's work as a state legislature. While her work as a governor does not give her national exposure, it is just as much experience as being a US senator...

    I don't think its so much that she doesn't understand community organizing as it's a silly job to use as a qualification for the presidency. A credential? Yes, but to point to that as evidence of Presidential experience? No. Sorry.

    Parent

    If, as a community organizer (none / 0) (#109)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:31:16 PM EST
    you brought two quarreling groups of people and found a solution to the conflict that was productive and acceptable to most everybody, then I think you could claim relevance.


    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#166)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:23:33 PM EST
    Governors and mayors do not spend all day just sitting at desks and issuing orders.  They spend most of their days, "working with unions, community groups and individuals"- also politicians of all stripes at all levels, businesses and industry groups, activist pressure groups, and on and on and on and on.

    You're right that a lot of people have no idea what community organizers do (although what they do under that vague title can vary enormously), but it would also seem some folks aren't very clear on the concept of what mayors and governors do.

    Parent

    I'm quite aware of what (none / 0) (#197)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:33:26 PM EST
    mayors and governors do. Apparently, you missed the point of my intitial post. Palin is in no position to make fun of community organizers becuase she, clearly, does not know what they do. I don't know about in other cities, but here in Seattle, community organizing groups actually save people's homes and jobs.

    Really.

    Parent

    How do a President's job duties (none / 0) (#182)
    by Grace on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:40:59 PM EST
    relate to those of a Community Organizer?  

    I'm somehow missing the connection here...  

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:52:20 PM EST
    Brokaw and Todd just admitted on air that many republicans are having doubts about Palin behind the scenes.  In Todd's case, that's sort of a belated announcement. heh.

    Brokaw and Todd? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by nell on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:20:13 PM EST
    The same Brokaw and Todd who repeated again and again that that Obama would have 50 superdelegates coming out for him any day now, but then they had to back that up? The same Brokaw and Todd who have repeatedly been extremely pro-Obama and anti-anyone running against Obama?

    I am not saying the republicans are not having doubts, I think the media has done a great job assaulting her and raising doubts that go beyond what is fair about her experience and questioning her as a mother, etc. All I am saying is that no anchor on MSNBC or NBC can be cited as credible in any way.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#112)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:32:18 PM EST
    Well, I think if you are looking for anti-hillary and anti-women sentiment you might try the last 20 years of the republican party.  IIRC, Hillary was a bi-sexual, serial adulteress who murdered white house staffers when she wasnt selling secrets to the chinese snd arranging the death of her old friends in little rock.  There was more but I cant remember it all.

    Palin hasnt been exposed to a thousandth of what Hillary took from the Right.

    Parent

    And let's hope she isn't (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:42:52 PM EST
    because WE'RE supposed to be the good guys.

    If what she's been exposed to in the past - is it six? - days is any indication, Democrats are well on their way to wiping out the Republican record on sexism and misogyny.

    Parent

    I dont think so (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:47:46 PM EST
    No, thats a GOP talking point.

    The media has asked fair questions by and large. We have 8 weeks to get to know someone who might just become president.  Her record and associations need to be examined.

    What happens on blogs isnt the media. Neither are the tabloids.  People in blog-land sometimes forget that.

    Chris Matthews asked a McCain spokesman today who was mistreating Palin in the MSM and the best he had was "US" magazine.

    Parent

    No it isn't. (none / 0) (#175)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:36:15 PM EST
    We're talking about political parties, not the media. Political parties are made up of people. People just happen to comment on blogs.

    And if the media HAS been less focused on sexism and misogyny regarding Palin than regarding HRC, then it only goes to show that the MCM respects its own (Republicans). And the Democrats don't.

    Parent

    Not Just Coming From Brokaw and Todd (none / 0) (#202)
    by daring grace on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:39:32 AM EST
    Ever since Palin was announced, this whispery behind the scenes meme has been cropping up that there are some (many?) in the Repub establishment (i.e. Washington chapter as opposed to governors) who have had no contact with Palin and feel uneasy because of that:

    They seem to be questioning her credentials because she has not been part of their particular wing of the party. because of her relative newness to them she seems untested and unproven--not to mention her scant public record so far.

    On Morning Joe this AM, Senator Barrasso of Wyoming was waxing enthusiastic about Palin's speech last night when he was asked if he's ever spoken with her...uncomfortable pause...He admitted he has not.

    Then he was asked if he knew anyone in Washington who had spoken to her, who knew her. He quickly offered that he knew senators who have been governors who know her quite well and think highly of her.

    That, and the Repub political professionals (i.e. operatives) who seem to be fretting that McCain is choosing to run a personality/character/bio campaign in an issues year is the thrust of the Republican uneasiness I've heard so far.

    The grassroots base is eating it all up, though, which, of course McCain did need.

    Parent

    trying not to be paranoid (none / 0) (#47)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:58:14 PM EST
    but what if the mic thing was not an accident, just more efforts to lower expectations so that if she gives a good speech they can all say, "gee I had my doubts, but now I am a believer!"

    THat is too paranoid, right?

    Parent

    I don't doubt that Palin will (none / 0) (#165)
    by byteb on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:23:33 PM EST
    give a good speech. She appears very comfortable on stage and in command. She's going to read what a bunch of very good speech writers have put together. SHe's going to feed the crowd a lot of red meat..bad liberals, bad Democrats, bad Obama, bad Biden. I don't understand what the suspense is about her tonight. It's a scripted event and I can't picture her flubbing it.
    It doesn't change the fact that she's to the right of Attila the Hun and appeals to the most right of the right wing.

    Parent
    Watching the republican convention (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:01:52 PM EST
    The folks speaking at this point are mostly just plain folks.
    They are hispanic, women, men, black and white.
    They are expressing the exact frustrations and hopes and dreams that we all have. They are talking about renewable energy. They are talking about getting government off their backs.

    My thoughts are that all of the evil that we are enduring these days are a product of the corruption of both political parties working in concert. The Iraq war could have have happened and continue to be perpetuated without the active support of both democrats and republicans.

    We are supposed to hate republicans.
    I have nothing but contempt for Bush, but people like him are only possible because he is basically unopposed.
    I am totally unconvinced that the democratic nominees are passionate about our best interests.
    We have been divided from each other and the ones who benefit from it are in control and will continue to be in control.

    My thoughts about Palin and her qualifications are that I don't care about them. I would vote for a bartender or a cab driver or a sanitation worker if I felt that they were passionately on our side.

    Ugh. (none / 0) (#161)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:19:20 PM EST
    Now we get to the heavyweights:

    Romney is talking.

    The arrogance is mind-boggling and almost numbing.
    Who does he think he is?

    The higher up in the party - or the more money they have - whatever it is - the humanity gets left at the door.

    Parent

    I'm not getting arrogance (none / 0) (#178)
    by Valhalla on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:38:13 PM EST
    I'm getting used car salesman.  Ugh.  Actually, the man I actually bought my used car from would get my vote over Mitt.  


    Parent
    I remember some pundit making that point... (none / 0) (#187)
    by NvlAv8r on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:50:47 PM EST
    He said that when he sees Romney, he sees him saying "What's it gonna take to get you in this car?"  Or perhaps a yacht salesman.  

    Parent
    How About... (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:11:54 PM EST
    Mentioning what the meeting was about?  Obama met with him to tell him to back off his family.

    Obama was unhappy ... (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:24:17 PM EST
    ... about what he perceived as unfair attacks by Fox (criticism of his wife, Obama as "foreign/suspicious", etc.).  Of course, Fox "News" is always unfair with any Dem, but the article points out that Obama's goal was to "neutralize a potential adversary", and that neither side backed away from their original positions.

    That being said, the point is the hypocrisy.  Why is it a horrible thing for Hillary to sit down with Scaife, but not for Obama to do so with Rupert Murdoch?

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by themomcat on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:32:42 PM EST
    It is sometimes in one's best interest to sit down with an adversary and answer questions and clarify positions, if that is at all possible. HRC won over Scaife with her candor and firm stand on her issues and convictions. Obama must demonstrate that he, too, can stand up to his detractors even in a one on one with Bill O'Reilly.

    Parent
    had to delete Yman's comment (none / 0) (#132)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:47:20 PM EST
    due to the long url that skewed the site. YMan, if you can't use the link button at the top of the comment box, go to tinyurl.com and get a short link.

    Parent
    Obama meets with Rupert Murdoch, Roger Ailes (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:02:21 PM EST
    Reposted - sorry for the long link Jeralyn.

    Remember how Hillary was attacked by Obama supporters and the progosphere for sitting down for an interview with Richard Scaife?  Funny thing .............. three months ago, Obama sat down for his own (previously undisclosed) meeting with Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch of Fox News infamy.  http://tinyurl.com/6m3q23  He even agreed to appear on the Bill O'Reilly show this Thursday.

    Just curious ... is this still treasonous, craven pandering, or is it okay now?


    Parent

    This lady is boring. I can see why McCain (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:30:01 PM EST
    didn't pick her.

    It takes a village (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by domerdem on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:37:47 PM EST
    (a really small village) to train a GOP VP candidate.  

    Diversity Night? (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by Brillo on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:46:22 PM EST
    They've had far more minorities speaking tonight.  I'm just waiting for them to haul out the gospel choir like last election...

    Is it just me.... (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by Oje on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:48:19 PM EST
    Or are the RNC delegates failing to applaud enthusiastically at all of the old "economic" lines that Republicans have relied on for 28 years. Both Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina seemed to become uncomfortable in the midsts of their speeches, at the points they knock bureaucracy / government / federal debt. It seems like one of the legs of the old conservative coalition has become Republicans-in-abstention this year.

    This is beyond boring and I'm a junkie. (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:51:55 PM EST
    Maybe they should have jazzed up their set like we did. I thought it was silly at first, but in comparison to this, they need something. The delegates seem as bored as I am.

    Parent
    I'm watching C-span (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:05:36 PM EST
    Michael Steele is up.  They're whoopin it up at him.  It's much better without the teebee personalities and their nooz shows.

    gaaak... he just said 'my friends'

    Parent

    because trickle-down hasn't worked (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:59:59 PM EST
    it stopped trickling after the top five percent. Every one now knows that. If I was a republican, and had to compare and contrast the 90's with the last eight years, I too, would be uncomfortable.

    Parent
    Carly and Meg (none / 0) (#192)
    by Grace on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:07:22 PM EST
    are corporate hacks -- and the corporate hack thing isn't working for most of America.  There needs to be a new economic agenda for the Republican Party (and for the Dems too).  

    Federal spending that only finds its way into the pockets of the top 5% doesn't cut it.  Tax cuts that end up there don't work either.  

    Parent

    First Days of 3rd year (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:25:45 PM EST
    So I just finished that fun test and my first rotation is in oncology (study of cancer)- I am rotating specifically with GU and breast cancer specialists.  It is so amazing to see the how amazing the human spirit can be facing certain death.  Also the magic of family is so apparent.  If you have a loved one, give them a big kiss.

    On a negative note/ positive note.  America's healthcare system is amazing at this level of human sickness.  The problem is that our healthcare system is not open enough to make sure women (more so then men because prostate cancer is slower growing) don't come into the hospital with full metastatic breast cancer.  I call it the Jesus effect- we like to play jesus instead of just preventing the need for the messiah


    Hmmm. Huckabee just (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:38:00 PM EST
    just sd. Obama brought back foreign ideas of government, i.e., socialism, from his excellent adventure in Europe.  

    Palin's duaghter as distraction (4.75 / 4) (#6)
    by Key on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:17:06 PM EST
    Palin has problems on many levelsIs it possible that McCain is pushing hard on the daughter story, actually feeding this story to the media in a big way, to distract from all of her other, more legitimate problems?

    Josh Marshall, I think, hits the nail on the head:

    Let's be clear about what's happening here. Overwhelmingly, reporters are pressing eminently reasonable questions -- her role in troopergate, her lack of experience, her connections to the AIP, her history of earmarking and lobbyists, etc. Meanwhile, the McCain campaign is going absolutely non-stop about Palin's daughter. It is unmistakable.


    I'm sorry to say (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:50:27 PM EST
    that I've lost all respect for Josh Marshall's judgment.

    Is saying this allowed under the new rules, even if I don't go into the reasons for my mistrust?

    Parent

    yes, that's expressed civilly (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:15:46 PM EST
    and it's on topic of what I posted and this is an open thread. It's drive by oneliners I'm discouraging.

    Parent
    It would have been a one-liner (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:29:20 PM EST
    about totally distrusting Josh Marshall (when was he ransomed?) if I hadn't added a line about whether it's allowed.

    So you see why I am confused.

    Parent

    Yes -- as a distraction and also (4.50 / 2) (#10)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:22:07 PM EST
    they are pushing the daughter stuff out there, so that they can then bash the media for focusing on her daughter (I mean, really, bringing the boyfriend to the convention?!)

    When all else fails, blame the "liberal media"

    OTOH, this is not Plan B, or Plan C, but Plan D.  Indicative of how far back on defense they are.

    Parent

    Wasn't the story about Sarah and Bristol Palin (none / 0) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:12:25 PM EST
    first pushed, in a more profane form, by Andrew Sullivan who wrote a bit, seminal (I know), highly influential pro-Obyama story, in The Atlantic, nearly a year ago (December/07).

    NOTE: I'm not linking to the Sullivan story on the Palins since it still may be a violation of site rules.

    Parent

    Gotta love live mics (4.50 / 2) (#2)
    by Faust on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:09:21 PM EST
    If only everyone just said what they actually think all the time.

    Just what is a "masculine speech" anyway (4.50 / 2) (#13)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:25:12 PM EST
    Wash Post reported:
    Not anticipating that McCain would choose a woman as his running mate, the speech that was prepared in advance was "very masculine," according to campaign manager Rick Davis, and "we had to start from scratch."

    The best response to this I've seen is a post on DK of which the following in an excerpt:
    Here's McCain's own campaign manager confirming that Palin was a last minute choice, and that the original speech was written for someone else. Right now, they're sitting at that table with the diced up remains of a speech that was originally written for Romney or Pawlenty and putting a dress on it.

    It would be interesting to see what the before and after versions of the speech look like. What will be missing from the revised speech? What parts of the speech did the Republicans find so "masculine" that they just couldn't let their VP pick deliver them? Just the fact that they're busily putting pink paint on a speech designed before McCain threw his Hail Hard Right pass shows what they really think about Palin, and about women in general. Unless the speech was full of references to jock straps, just what was in it that Palin couldn't say? Really, how sexist is it to describe a political speech as "very masculine?"




    I was summoned for jury duy today (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:00:00 PM EST
    for criminal court. I guess rules vary from state to state, but I have some questions.

    My brother, who passed away way too young, was a defense attorney, so my sympathies are with the defense most of the time. Will this disqualify me?

    I'm not looking for away to get out of this...my brother's biggest problem with our justice system was the lousy choices he had for juries.

    I go Monday for orientation and I have to choose two weeks in either Oct, Nov, or Dec to serve. Does that mean I'll be there everyday for two weeks or only if I'm selected? I'm an accountant for a small company and I'm the only one who can do payroll, direct deposit and tax deposits.

    Here in NYC, I was let go after a couple (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by nycstray on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:12:12 PM EST
    days, as are most folks I know were also. I took my laptop and just worked when I wasn't causing. trouble during questioning*

    I'd aim, for getting it over in Oct. Life just gets nuts in Nov/Dec

    *It was not my intent to cause trouble, they just had trouble with my honest answers. Never coulod really figure out what the big deal was.

    Parent

    I'll probably choose November because my (none / 0) (#8)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:20:35 PM EST
    workload is heavier in October for taxes, etc.

    I can't explain how nervous I am. I'm not really sure if the orientation is where you fill out questionnaires or not. It says a judge will be there and only he can excuse anyone so I'm not sure if that is to exclude those with good reasons or if it's to exclude because of views on laws, etc. It just says to be there at 8:30.

    Maybe I won't choose Nov. I'd hate to be tied up too much during the election. I haven't experienced all of this lead up to miss the most important part!

    Parent

    You 're a better citizen than I am (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:37:44 PM EST
    Because I've been self-employed for the past 9 years I always cry business lo$$e$ when they want me for jury duty.

    Parent
    I'm not sure that would work in TN. I was (none / 0) (#28)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:45:33 PM EST
    researching "jury duty" here this afternoon and I read that it is very hard to get out of it here. They were trying to pass a law that removed an exemption for lawyers and "chronic drunkards"! The article said too many people were claiming to be too drunk to serve!

    I don't really mind serving. My biggest problem is that there is construction here that closed down parts of interstates 40 & 75 that go to the courthouse. I have no idea how to get there. All th streets are one way and I'm not familiar with downtown at all. But hey, Tennessee pays a whopping $11 a day for jury duty.

    Parent

    Sounds like they really need juries! (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:00:52 PM EST
    Good luck to you, Theresa. Traffic around construction is always a real battle.

    Parent
    I'd take the bus. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:01:30 PM EST
    My husband did jury duty once and we lived on THE main bus line.  Service every 10 minutes peak, 20 minutes off peak hours.  A straight shot practically to the CH entrance.  Saved a bundle on parking.

    He then went to have three days of more lousy bus rides that I ever had and I had years of riding the bus.  He still harbors ill will towards mass transit.

    Parent

    No bus available from where I am. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:09:32 PM EST
    If I remember from someone I worked with, you show up each day and then, if you don't get selected, you can leave.

    I guess I'll learn more Monday. The summons says not to call with questions, they will answer them at orientation. I can't handle uncertainty very well...this will drive me over the edge waiting.

    Parent

    Not even park and ride? (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:15:01 PM EST
    At least park and rides are usually free.  Parking around courthouses tend to be inconvenient and/or expensive.  

    Show up for orientation and find someone to ask.  The people who work there usually know how to get around and how to avoid unnecessary pain and inconvenience.

    Parent

    FWIW (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Valhalla on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:50:26 PM EST
    Mass. similarly closed down almost all the automatic exceptions and any presumptions about who should be excused several years ago.  

    But when I was called, they had a form where you fill out information about yourself and asks about specific things.  One of them was whether you or relatives are police officers.  I'm pretty sure there were questions about criminal defense lawyers (or legal assistants, etc)  I (truthfully) answered that my brother's a cop.  The lawyers review the forms before questioning the potential panel, and I was kicked off before they even started asking anyone questions.  It was a drunk driving case, but I imagine any criminal case lawyer wouldn't want someone related to a criminal defense attorney.

    Parent

    the rules vary so much (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:15:15 PM EST
    and judges disgression varies.  I just recently sat on a jury for a DUI.  The judge dismissed almost everyone who had a strong bent toward defense or prosecution.  So my judge probably would have dismissed you.  But others judges may not have.  We only have to go sit for one day in AZ, so I don't know what would happen if you were excused from a jury on the first day, if you would have to go back and sit there every day for 2 weeks?

    Parent
    It depends. (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by TChris on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:16:36 PM EST
    Different courts handle jury pools in different ways.  There is usually a jury clerk (or some equivalent title) identified in information you received with your summons who would be able to tell you about the specific procedures that apply in your county and state.  If not, call the clerk of courts and ask to speak to someone who can answer questions about jury duty.  My guess is you won't be kept sitting around day after day for weeks at a time, but in some places that can happen.

    Once you are called into court on a panel for jury selection in a particular trial, the judge will generally ask if there is any reason you cannot serve. Unless the trial will be quite long, most judges don't view employment disruption as a good excuse to avoid jury service, but you should feel free to explain your predicament at that time.  If it will be a long trial, the judge might excuse you from that panel but ask you to come back for potential service on a different jury.

    I don't know of any jurisdiction that would automatically disqualify you from jury service for being related to a defense attorney.  When you are questioned by the judge or lawyers, you might be asked if you are related to or close friends with any lawyers.  If you are called on a civil case, it will likely make no difference to the lawyers that your brother was a defense attorney.  In a criminal case, the prosecutor might ask you if your brother ever talked to you about his work and if you feel you can be fair to the prosecution in light of those conversations.  If you say "I can't be fair" the judge will probably strike you from the panel.  If you promise that you can be fair, the prosecutor might strike you just to be safe, unless there are other members of the panel who have a greater potential for bias.

    Good luck.  I hope you have a chance to serve, whether civil or criminal, and that you enjoy the experience.  Jury service is a fundamental civic duty, in many ways more important to democracy than voting.  The court and lawyers sincerely value the service of jurors who make a strong effort to be fair.  

    Parent

    Thanks TChris. Your last paragraph is what (none / 0) (#15)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:30:02 PM EST
    my brother would tell me. It's for criminal court.

    I know I can be fair and would be a good juror. My biggest fear would be if I'm the only one who feels a person was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, would I be strong enough to stand up.

    I'm not a native here (Knoxville) so I don't know any lawyers except one that handled a child custody case for my family.

    As far as fair to the prosecution, I know for a fact that in the small town where I grew up, they weren't always honest. I promise you I know this for a fact. I hope that isn't true where I live now. I haven't read anything bad about the prosecutors here, so it may have just been the small town power that made the other one the way he was.

    Parent

    I love JD... (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:00:12 PM EST
    ...and apparently they like me too, since I always get seated.  

    I have no doubt that should you get into the jury room, you'll find the courage of your convictions!

    Parent

    Probably. But, the ultimate question (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:17:52 PM EST
    is whether you can set aside your feelings about your brother, etc. and fairly be a juror on the case.  Lots of criminal defense attorneys ask this question:  if you were on accused of committing a crime, would you want a person with your mind set as a juror on your case?

    Parent
    Not because we care about the answer. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by TChris on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:24:30 PM EST
    Because they rarely answer, "No, I would send someone like me straight to the hangman" and if they do, it's because they want off of jury service.  We ask it to get the jurors thinking about the concept of fairness, and we hope that thought lingers throughout the trial.

    Parent
    My answer would be yes. I would hope for (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:31:54 PM EST
    an open minded person like me as opposed to some people I know who think everyone charged needs to be put away or hung on Main Street.

    Parent
    That's how I feel too. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:46:54 PM EST
    I was called last June but didn't end up serving, even though I have always wanted to. It's partly because I feel it is my civic duty, but more because if it were me being tried, I'd want someone like me on the jury.

    Isn't that what "a jury of your peers" means?

    Parent

    That's what I think. It would scare me to have (none / 0) (#37)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:51:02 PM EST
    some of the people I know (even those with good educations) on a jury.

    I will say, it would have to be very convincing for me to send someone to jail. I will probably come off like a bleeding heart liberal and get zapped.

    Parent

    In the voir dire,tell them you are a proponet of (none / 0) (#55)
    by Saul on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:02:15 PM EST
    jury nullification if is its a criminal case. You will get bumped off. Of course this is only if you are picked to be one of the jurors.

    Parent
    I don't think she's looking for an excuse. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:47:37 PM EST
    Although I once honestly answer that (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:50:32 PM EST
    question "no," due to the similarity of the situation to the experience of a close friend and my efforts to get her case prosecuted.  But, of course, the judge wouldn't dismiss me for cause, as I sd. I could be fair.  Defense attorney was reluctant to burn a challenge.  When I asked him later why, he sd. it was a "slow plea."  

    Parent
    When I had jury duty (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:43:56 PM EST
    the prosecutor asked me to name someone I considered a hero.  I said my dad.  He liked that answer a lot; turns out it's considered a "law and order" type answer.  Who knew I was such a conservative.

    Then the defense attorney asked me if I would hold it against the defendant if he didn't testify.  "It's his constitutional right," I said.  Big smile on that one.  Somehow, without even trying, I managed to please both sides!

    Parent

    But, did you serve on the jury? (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:01:12 PM EST
    Yeah (none / 0) (#200)
    by Steve M on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 12:12:08 AM EST
    Well, they picked me, but then a mistrial somehow got declared the next morning before the whole thing got underway.  So I can't tell any stories about what it's like to sit through a trial.

    Parent
    my experience (none / 0) (#89)
    by connecticut yankee on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:19:34 PM EST
    Depending on the case they spend most of the selection process looking for reasons to dump you.  Ive been twice and each time they finally just came out and asked, "does anyone feel like they can't be fair?"...  This is your opening to make stuff up if you feel you havent already been disqualified by the specifics of your job.

    I sat next to a woman who disqualified herself because her husband was a security guard at Walmart and she felt this might influence her judgement. This was a medical malpractice suit against a hospital by a truck driver... But she walked.

    Parent

    Noonan's advice to Clinton: (none / 0) (#11)
    by Exeter on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:23:44 PM EST
    "she has to seem like a woman to win"  

    I always remind myself (none / 0) (#43)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 06:56:17 PM EST
    that Noonan idolized Reagan - before the Right created the Mythical Conservative Icon.

    I wonder how much of a typical pundit she is.  If there is one pundit who worshipped at the altar of Personality, how many more are there?

    The one thing I remember most about Reagan was hearing that he was shot.  I was at the high school waiting for an after school activity to start.  My reaction was "Should I feel sad?  Because I don't.".  I didn't know that much about him, but I did know I didn't much like him.

    Parent

    Brokaw and Todd (none / 0) (#52)
    by limama1956 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:01:30 PM EST
    Of course many Republicans have doubts about Palin. Bill Bennett on CNN is been babbling like a punch drunk. David Gergen has been like a surgeon, very clinical; he said that the expectations for Palin's speech tonight are very low. Basically, all she has to do is show up, be personable, and leave without stumbling. Probably the easiest speech she'll give.

    IMO, first impressions are very hard to shake. On Friday, when I heard Palin was picked, my first impression was negative. Nothing I have heard or seen since has changed my mind. Instead, it's only reinforced my opinion.

    When is Palin supposed to speak? (none / 0) (#66)
    by ap in avl on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:09:04 PM EST
    I would look it up myself but I'm trying to finish up a project.  Or maybe I'm just to lazy to look it up.  Does anyone know?

    10 pm ET (none / 0) (#79)
    by bjorn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:14:23 PM EST
    Thanks (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by ap in avl on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:15:59 PM EST
    Should have enough time to finish up here AND pour a glass of wine.  May need the whole bottle if Palin comes off as well as I fear she will.

    Parent
    NPR said it would be (none / 0) (#85)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:17:11 PM EST
    at 10:30 p.m. Eastern time.

    Parent
    C-Span: 10:35 p.m. EDT (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:35:17 PM EST
    Good grief! What is going on with the Twin Cities (none / 0) (#78)
    by jawbone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:14:02 PM EST
    police and sheriff's departments? Who is calling the shots on things like this impoundment of an environmental training group bus?

    Can they do this??? Serious question.

    Via ShakespearesSister linked to Starhawk and to GodlikeProductions.

    The Permibus was relocating from the Bedlam Theatre in Minneapolis, where they had spent the day teaching Urban Permaculture, to a friend's house in Saint Paul for a well deserved break. The Permibus has been in the Minneapolis area since August 2nd when the crew appeared at the Midtown Farmers Market for a morning of Permaculture education including Permaculture 101, chicken care, seed ball making for kids, and the Permi-puppet show.

    During the past month the Permibus has parked at several local businesses and, as a neighborly gesture of respect for local police, Mr. Wilson contacted the appropriate precincts just to let them know the Permibus was in the area and had permission from the business owners to be parked on their lot. Through this, as well as other casual discussions with Minneapolis and Saint Paul police officers, the Permibus crew found the local police to be interested and respectful.

    However on August 30th all that changed when, for no apparent valid reason the police pulled over and seized the Permibus. After the incident Stan Wilson said, "If the combined law enforcement of Minneapolis, Saint Paul, Ramsey County, and the State of Minnesota can pull over and impound a vehicle and home used to teach organic gardening and sustainability, one has to wonder what it is our government really fears. After all, we seek to teach people that the real meaning of homeland security is local food, fuel and energy production. For that we have had our lives stolen by government men with guns."(My emphasis)

    I've considered living in the Twin Cities (when I get Medicare and can leave my insurance company's "area" and still get covered for my cancer), but this makes me triple think that idea.

    In contrast (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:46:01 PM EST
    the Denver police's handling of the DNC starts to look sane. And I had no high hopes for their behavior, and yes, there were unwarranted incidences of violence.

    Still, I noticed that the cops, who were hypervigilant and even aggressive and looking for trouble the first day, by the second and third days were more relaxed and even friendly to protesters and marchers (I was a marcher). By Thursday they were obviously having fun.

    Parent

    It;s about time.. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Jymn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:22:46 PM EST
    ...Big Tent Republican and Talk Right got their due. Peggy Noonen is more left than you guys. What a joke. I'm laughing because this will never see the light of day. Censor on, my right-leaning friends.

    Obama on Fox (none / 0) (#107)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:29:40 PM EST
    Is anyone going to watch Obama when he's on Fox.

    Absolutely (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by Marvin42 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:34:00 PM EST
    I think it will be a very good chance for him to be tough, and hopefully push back hard against O'Reilley. I hope he doesn't try to "get along" with him.

    Parent
    Definitely (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:40:57 PM EST
    But I wouldn't get my hopes up for him to be tough or "push back hard".  I expect/hope he will get a few jabs in at Fox, but confrontation is not really his style.

    Parent
    He hasn't won any debates. (none / 0) (#139)
    by Jeannie on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:59:22 PM EST
    And Billo is very quick and won't let him hummmmm and hawwww too much or he will get cut off. Does he have quick answers to all the questions about his background? He had better have them ready... or it won't be pretty. And they better be true, or the right machine will jump on them.

    Parent
    I don't think O'Reilly will go after him too hard (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:07:17 PM EST
    O'Reilly will push him on a few issues, but not too hard.  He's going to be happy just to have him on the show, and he'll want to put on a good show for his audience, but he'll also want Obama to come back.  I think he'll be civil to Obama ...... by O'Reilly standards, at least.

    Parent
    Remember how well Hillary did (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:42:27 PM EST
    She had BillO practically mesmerized.

    Parent
    Going to sleep, forget the speech (none / 0) (#121)
    by steviez314 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 07:37:47 PM EST
    I mean, really, I can already predict exactly what every MSM talking head will say about it.

    Left- eh;
    Right - love kisses yummy home run grand slam;
    MSM - time to make up for all the rough coverage so far.

    Did you notice, after you see a movie or Broadway show they don't have a panel discussion in the theatre afterwards?  Why do we need to be told what we've seen?

    No humor? (none / 0) (#145)
    by indiependy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:01:25 PM EST
    Is there no sense of humor on this board at all?

    First off, regarding ethnicity, people who've followed this story know that's verbatim how young Levi described himself on his MySpace page.

    Second, you might want to look into / being the international symbol for snark.

    Seriously, are people wound so tight they can't have a few Juno-like laughs every now and then?

    I laughed out loud (none / 0) (#149)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:04:34 PM EST
    reading it but I deleted it because it was very insulting and played to stereotypes.

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#157)
    by indiependy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:15:17 PM EST
    I know there are people that have trouble with snarky humor. But while it was a jab at fun, I used terms self-described by the person involved and situations pretty close to reality. That said, in the future I'll try and be more cognizant of how some here in the audience feel.

    Parent
    Enough (none / 0) (#198)
    by indiependy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:44:46 PM EST
    Not to get into it too much but Todd Palin (as stated more than once by Sarah) has Eskimo ancestry. Therefore, Bristol is part Eskimo. It's something they're rightfully proud about, don't know why you would think it's offensive.

    Parent
    A male delegate is (none / 0) (#152)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:08:16 PM EST
    holding this sign:  PROPERITY

    "PROSPERITY" (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:09:07 PM EST
    Did Romney (none / 0) (#155)
    by Lil on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:11:23 PM EST
    just say the sun is gonna come up in the west? I really wish this guy had one. Now he's attacking liberals (I'll givr him credit for sayin the word right...at least he didn't say librul.) Now he's lying.

    meant to say won, of course (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Lil on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:13:16 PM EST
    what kind of Freudian slip was that?

    Parent
    Funny, I think McCain messed up not picking (none / 0) (#160)
    by Teresa on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:17:48 PM EST
    him. It makes me think the powers that be think McCain will lose and they don't want Mitt to have a step up on anyone next time. I still can't figure out how McCain beat him. I'm not a Mitt fan but he seems to be their best "Pol" as BTD would say.

    Parent
    I'd like to thank Mittens (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Faust on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:16:28 PM EST
    for reminding me with his speech why I am voting for Obama.

    Parent
    Mittens (none / 0) (#168)
    by nell on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:24:53 PM EST
    Heh, I have always hated that nickname for him, "Mittens." I always think of something soft and fuzzy and warm, and "Mittens" Romney is none of those things. I feel affectionate about him for half a second when I hear that name. So inappropriate for him.

    Parent
    Now that you mention it (none / 0) (#185)
    by echinopsia on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:49:51 PM EST
    can anyone explain the nick "Walnuts!" for McCain?

    Parent
    My kitty...... (none / 0) (#189)
    by michitucky on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:55:56 PM EST
    is named Mittens......White, polydactyl paws!!!  

    Parent
    Just remember that (none / 0) (#191)
    by Faust on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:02:58 PM EST
    Romney's Mittens are filled with broken glass.

    Parent
    These speeches are worse than I expected... (none / 0) (#162)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:19:30 PM EST
    They're scaring the cats and the kids.

    Still, I'm kind of moved by the acute PATHOS of some of the characters in the audience.


    BTD (none / 0) (#164)
    by disappointed on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:22:40 PM EST
    Where is he?

    He wanted to take a break (none / 0) (#193)
    by Faust on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 09:10:18 PM EST
    from Sarah Palin week.

    Parent
    Well, CNN (none / 0) (#170)
    by Lil on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:26:57 PM EST
    is trashing it it seems to me. And knocking McCain around a little. Maybe BTD was right all alon that BO is the media darling.

    Candy Crowley: ""if John Mccain died...This is getting surreal or I'vr had too much wine.

    Taken Aback (none / 0) (#176)
    by nell on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:37:00 PM EST
    I was really taken aback by Candy's question and thought it was horrible and inappropriate. I mean could you imagine if she asked a similar question about Obama because he may be at higher risk of heart disease or lung cancer because he used to be a smoker? It would be awful and inappropriate and the left would rightfully be in arms. Hillary didn't even MENTION Obama when she made a reference to presidential tragedy and the press (and the Obama campaign) took it to mean that she wanted him dead! The press is unhinged...and stuff like that can cause a backlash.

    To hear Jeffery Toobin saying the McCain campaign is whining too much about the press followed by that disgusting question from Crowley made Toobin look like a fool.

    Parent

    I was surprised too, (none / 0) (#181)
    by Lil on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:40:36 PM EST
    and on a separate note, I just want to say my spelling errors tonight are driving me crazy.

    Parent
    A bona fide war criminal walks the floor... (none / 0) (#171)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:29:30 PM EST
    Alfred Heinz (Henry) Kissinger, who STILL advises the current administration.

    Most damming Kissinger QUOTE: "Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy". (Cited from Woodward and Bernstein, The Final Days.)

    Does he advise the McCain campaign? If so that quote could come in handy.

    RNC Snoozefest (none / 0) (#173)
    by Redshoes on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:30:10 PM EST
    Melissa's
    must read
    on the convention.

    Warning: Bloggers don't let bloggers drink and read.

    RNC Snoozefest (none / 0) (#174)
    by Redshoes on Wed Sep 03, 2008 at 08:31:16 PM EST
    Melissa's must read on the convention.

    Warning: Bloggers don't let bloggers drink and read.

    You can be sure ... (none / 0) (#201)
    by Caro on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:00:42 AM EST
    ... that they have said the same things about Obama, they just haven't been caught.

    Carolyn Kay
    MakeThemAccountable.com