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London Riots

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 11:51:09 AM EST
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Amazing photos of the London riots which continue. 16,000 officers are now patrolling the streets.

One of the crimes to be charged: inciting violence through social media. How will they find the rioters not caught in the act? Camera images.

What's the deeper cause behind the riots? No one seems to agree on that.

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    London Riots | 116 comments (116 topical)

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    One of the photos at the link had (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:19:01 PM EST
    as a caption, the following:

    Former London mayor and future mayoral candidate Ken Livingstone told the BBC that the anger was fuelled by disengagement.  "There is a level of despair out there.  We have got to have a government that speaks to the whole community, not just the layer at the top."

    Yeah, no kidding.

    Unlike the L.A. riots (none / 0) (#48)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:28:37 PM EST
    .

    there are no armed shopkeepers to fend off the mob.  Despair seems to be far less prevalent among the rioters when the would be victims have effective means of defense.

    .

    Parent

    Check out this pic (none / 0) (#54)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:46:21 PM EST
    .

    Interestingly, no one got shot.

    .

    Parent

    Ken "The Red" Livingston (none / 0) (#95)
    by BTAL on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:54:00 PM EST
    has zero credibility.

    Parent
    The "deroguatory" term (none / 0) (#105)
    by BTAL on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 07:07:01 AM EST
    as you say, has been Livingstone's moniker since the late '70s to early '80s.  I was not the one who coined the phrase nor applied it to him. In fact, Livingstone was expelled from the Labour party for his words and actions.  He is an admitted socialist - do some research before climbing on your self-appointed ivory pillar.  

    Parent
    So he has "zero credibility" ... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Yman on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 07:50:55 AM EST
    ... simply because he calls himself a socialist?

    That's ridiculous.

    BTW - I don't think anyone accused you of coining the phrase, but you were the one who used the term in this thread to try to insult him.

    In fact, Livingstone was expelled from the Labour party for his words and actions.

    So what?  Livingstone was expelled for running as an independent against the Labour Party candidate in the first London mayoral election.  He lost the nomination despite winning a majority of the votes.  Why should he be ashamed of that?

    Parent

    Do you mind if I keep this quote and (none / 0) (#122)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Aug 11, 2011 at 05:26:15 AM EST
    use it forthwith?  

    Don't call him a deroguatory name and dismiss him curtly like that, just because he may have said something with which you disagree. Because otherwise, we might just as easily say the same thing about your own credibility.

    Done by 99.99% of "progressives" here.

    Parent

    Cause ? (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:23:29 PM EST
    What's the deeper cause behind the riots? No one seems to agree on that.

    No, everyone knows why they are happening, no one seems to agree on the best spin, "Drunk Hooligans who Love Chaos", or "Street Punks Who Want Free Stuff."

    Everyone knows the root cause, making the poor pay for the misdeeds of the rich.  I love that top management was all vacationing, including the Mayor of London.  

    All gone somewhere better.

    Permanent Vacation that lot... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:21:49 PM EST
    same here in the colonies...Obama throwing parties and fancy fundraisers, the Clintons renting a joint in the Hamptons for a week...only 25 mill to buy!

    No to knock another person's party, I too like to party, but I don't call it "public service".

    Parent

    I think the Clintons (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:48:08 PM EST
    deserve to take a break (did they call their vacation public service?). How many air miles has she logged in the past couple of years . . .?

    Parent
    Everybody deserves a break... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:17:49 PM EST
    what I'm not sure about is having that kinda cashish and still collecting a presidential pension and taxpayer funded security (for Bill), and asking for donations to pay off campaign debt (for Hill).

    I mean c'mon stray.  We went from Harry Truman getting a pension cuz his arse was broke after a career in public service, and he didn't want to make money off the office in the private sector, to public service being a ticket to the millionaires club.  Something is rotten in Denmark.

    I'm a pursuit of happiness guy, if ya wanna be filthy rich go work for Goldman Sachs...don't use public service, err disservice, as your golden ticket...its why the public is not being served.

    Parent

    More Realistically... (none / 0) (#60)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:13:56 PM EST
    ... work for Goldman Sachs under the guise of public service getting paid via legal campaign contributions.

    Parent
    Yes, violence is (none / 0) (#31)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:34:06 PM EST
    a tragic, negative outcome of people trying to be heard  in vain and with frustration.  Government officials may seem to be out-of-touch, but they are not--their austerity measures are taken with an understanding that it is less risky to target a Tottenham than a Belgravia precisely because they bank on voicelessness and unlikeliness of political organization.   Of course, there is overreaching and miscalculation often triggered by an incident that literally and figuratively ignites the pent-up feelings of those who feel backed into a corner. The restive population may  try non-violence to find their voice, but  even a controlled burn can get out of hand, aided and abetted by the sidecars of thuggery and criminality.  

    Parent
    Cause? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by bocajeff on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:02:34 PM EST
    Don't care about THE cause because there are probably thousands of different causes ranging from the killing of the person to peer pressure. Heck, losing a hockey game can spur a riot...

    Some seem to be upset at the killing (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:27:41 PM EST
    of a neighbor by the police.

    Much of the rest, I would imagine, have gotten caught up in the mob mentality that pervades such incidences, similar to the riots/looting/etc., in LA that followed the Rodney King verdict.

    Either that or deep-set Brit outrage that an Irishman won the British Open...

    Don't romanticize the rioters in any way (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Addison on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:15:02 PM EST
    Nearby, appearing almost grief-stricken, shopkeeper Sivaharan Kandiah, 39, stared at the remains of his looted store.

    Rioters smashed their way through metal screens protecting the Clarence Convenience Store and stole or destroyed almost everything they found. One elderly onlooker, who declined to give his name, told msnbc that he saw ice cream and other goods being thrown into a burning car nearby.

    Originally from the war-torn Tamil area of Sri Lanka, Kandiah has run the shop for 11 years.
    You'll never understand, (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:26:54 PM EST
    and that's why they riot

    Parent
    Eh, that's just some jingoistic nonsense. (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Addison on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:36:39 PM EST
    I will never understand so that's why they riot. Well, that's so devoid of argument and sense that it can't really be dealt with. So, I guess you got me there?

    Well, I feel in good company because Kandiah doesn't understand either:

    "Never had any problems. You work 70, 80 hours a week and you end up with this. This is what the local community has done to you," he said, wondering why only his store in the row of small businesses had been attacked.

    "Everything gone, all wiped out," he added, saying he was unsure if his insurance would cover what he estimated to be a 30,000-pound ($49,000) loss.

    A steady stream of local people came to console him. Darren Jenkins, 29, said Kandiah was a "loved member of the community."

    Have fun finding new ways to excuse a small segment of poor-bashing thuggish teens who also happen to be poor. I'm sure the Montreal rioters and Michigan University rioters also riot because I "don't understand", perhaps they get similar deference from you?

    I support people like Kandiah. I support the grassroots groups springing up across London to clean up the mess and prevent further anti-poor violence. I support those groups getting formalized and active in the future. I don't support fuzzy-minded "liberals" projecting the cause and struggle of real community-building activists onto the destructive self-centered rioters and looters, and I'm sickened by it.

    Parent

    You're confusing... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    the cause of the riot with the results of a riot I think.  

    Once a riot starts, yeah, its an opportunity for every local hooligan to break and burn and destroy, and that is most uncool.  What we're talking about though is why it started....the cause.  Police brutality, authoritarianism, unemployment, hopelessness, institutionalized grift.  

    We can prevent riots and senseless violence if we address these things, or we can just say "thugs being thugs", lock up a buncha people, and wait for the next riot.

    Parent

    Thugs. (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Addison on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:17:54 PM EST
    No, I don't feel I'm confusing anything with anything. First off, again, rich kids and middle-class kids riot, too, and it looks just like this. Burning cars, smashed bank windows, etc. Saying poverty causes rioting is inane. Sometimes poverty allows rioting, just as sometimes pampered university life allows rioting.

    You're also creating a false choice. I can call thugs "thugs" AND support people who are addressing problems in their communities -- problems that include both police and teenage thugs. . There's less conflict there than treating impoverished communities as a single mass of grievance and impotence.

    We need to punish and condemn the rioters and not jump through hoops to excuse them. Or, worse yet de-humanize them and fashion rioters into some force of nature representing the grievances of their communities. They are individuals screwing over their poor neighbors.

    We also need to support people in those communities who are building bonds to stop these hoodie-garbed hooligans and ensure that these new community groups are stable enough to fight the cause of poverty.  

    The latter is more important than the former, but that doesn't mean that I need to watch my language and not call thugs "thugs". So I don't think we disagree on much of substance, but understand that in terms of how I word my (admittedly rather insignificant) opinion on this sort of thing, the rioters and arsonists and assaulters and looters will get no rhetorical or ideological or psychoanalytical quarter.

    Parent

    How about... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    we punish and condemn police brutality and those behind the greatest economic crimes the world has ever seen first, then work our way down to the knuckleheads who, relatively, do far far far less damage to life and limb.

    I think our hearts are in the same place too, but you seem to be advocating for the plague of different rules different fools, inequality under the law.  I see no difference between those who torch communities from the board room & Parliament, and those who torch them from the streets in a fit of rage.  And not foer nothing, rage is a better excuse than greed and authoritarianism, at least there is a reason to feel rage.

    Parent

    Here's what I think, kdog, (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:48:00 PM EST
    I think you are projecting onto the looters your own issues. This is all stuff you think and write about every day, all day, for what? The past 6-7 years?

    I'll bet 99% of the looters wouldn't even be able to verbalize any of these things because they're mostly interested in an exciting "adventure" and not at all the cops or "the greatest economic crimes the world has ever seen."

    Parent

    I think we all do that... (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:54:14 PM EST
    are you not doing the same, betting 99% are just looking for kicks?  Sh*t we all do it...we take our life experiences and beliefs and try to make sense of an insane world.

    Parent
    "My" stuff is what I and all my friends (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:05:38 PM EST
    felt and complained about as youths. Stuff that artists, like Springsteen, wrote songs about.

    And, yes, the cops were universally "the enemy" as they were the ultimate rule enforcers. Pretty much all the rules they, or our parents, or our school, or whoever, enforced seemed unfair to us.

    I can't imagine these youths are much different.

    Parent

    Point Missed (none / 0) (#81)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:17:31 PM EST
    I'll bet 99% of the looters wouldn't even be able to verbalize any of these things because they're mostly interested in an exciting "adventure" and not at all the cops or "the greatest economic crimes the world has ever seen."

    So if they could articulate their rage, it's all good ?  You are missing the point.

    The whole reason the riots are escalating is visceral, there is something in these people that is festering at a base level that wouldn't exist if they were being pushed to the brink.  It sucks that's it's getting expressed through destroying what is closest, but it's not about thought out plans, it's pure emotion.

    It's a symptom, and each person committing a crime should be punished, but that isn't going to make the disease go away.  It will keep happening and all these people will suffer and have neighborhoods destroyed because no one wants to address the disease that created the conditions that in which something like this could happen.

    These are the same people in the same neighborhoods 5 years ago, last year, why do you think they waited until every last but of hope was ripped away before they exploded.  They are fed up, and what they are doing is wrong, but when you push and oppress and squeeze, something has to give, humans will not live in oppression for long.

    Parent

    So if they could articulate their rage, (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:29:46 PM EST
    So if they could articulate their rage, it's all good ?  You are missing the point.
    Really? You really think the ability to verbalize is my point? Maybe you just want to argue and this makes you feel smart or something...

    Anyway, the "disease" is that youths of any/every stripe often feel like they're powerless and getting pushed around by others all the time and here's a way to feel exhilarated and powerful. These are same emotions you'll find in people at a peaceful march or rally, except that looting and burning stuff probably gets you more of that endorphin rush. Here's an opportunity to run amok, it's a siren call to many...

    Parent

    add: In case it sounds like I'm describing (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:34:06 PM EST
    the motivations of all the looters, for the record, I'm not. Most, though, for sure.

    Adventure, adrenaline, righteous power. Very seductive...

    Parent

    Stop Already (none / 0) (#103)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 01:42:02 AM EST
    I thought it was your point because.... that is what you wrote.  Something to the effect that 99% of the rioters couldn't verbalize their rage because they were to excited with the adventure.  Why make that claim if it doesn't matter, then claim that it wasn't your point.  Odd.

    So far you have called the riots, and a adrenaline rush, an adventure, and several other really lame things while claiming they rioters are exhilarated and powerful and excited and other really off base emotions.

    Not trying to be condescending, but damn man, you are out of touch, and comparing this to a snow ball fight or drunken celebrations while using terms I would expect to hear at the Olympics, not used to describe a riot.  

    Adventure, seriously, burning down your own neighborhood is an adventure filled with excitement ?

    Parent

    You are embarassing yourself. (none / 0) (#109)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 09:30:19 AM EST


    Parent
    I would suggest, however... (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    ...that the causes of riots by rich kids and middle class kids are generally fueled by alcohol during spring break or sporting events (and also the reaction/overreaction of authorities).  Even sporting events with adults rioting, that kind of makes sense, in the sense that, fine, they're irrationally pissed that their team lost and they're idiots.  

    Here, though, where exactly this is happening, the ratio of idiots to non, and the varying motivations of the various parties in the street, these do not suggest a social similarity with spring break getting outta hand in Daytona Beach. A mass-psychology similarity, yes, a horde mentality setting in for the worse, often, but the civil/social/economic/demographic aspects of this are much more profound and lasting in their effects, and usually not for the better.

    But I, like K-Dog, have no illusions about thugs getting in their free licks.  I think, however, that I can stand with those in the street not involved in violence/destruction AND the immigrant shopkeeper you quoted, whose story no sentient person could deny its import.  

    Parent

    Good One (none / 0) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:50:43 PM EST
    While your busy blaming the poor....
    From your Quote:

    "Everything gone, all wiped out," he added, saying he was unsure if his insurance would cover what he estimated to be a 30,000-pound ($49,000) loss."

    Why is it a gown man doesn't know if his insurance will cover the damages ?  Because the GD people who are throwing gas into a fire probably have a no-riot clause in his policy.

    I'm not advocating a riot, but when you start pushing people to the point where riots escalate beyond control, you may want to re-examine those policies that got you there.  The very policies that leave a grown A$$ man unsure if the money he paid to insure his property was in vain because he, like most, know the odds of him getting by screwed by the wealthy are not that low.

    Of course rioting is stupid on 1000 levels, but so is taking from the poor to feed the rich.  And everyone is bending over backwards to blame the symptom and shield the disease.

    I would love to here the modern day press coverage of the Boston Tea Party and the other thousands of mini-uprisings this country committed against it's oppressors before we said enough is enough.

    I don't condone it, but I understand it.

    Parent

    "Busy blaming the poor" (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Addison on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:15:00 PM EST
    It takes a pretty warped dorm-room mindset to think I'm blaming the poor. The same poor who are scared of these idiot hooligans, and are losing their jobs when the idiot hooligans burn down their businesses. Of course I'm actually defending the poor against being lumped in with hooligans by misguided "liberals" and advocating a response that leads to actual empowerment for poor communities. After the last riot the community got a swimming pool out of it -- if the diverse grassroots groups forming to defend their homes and businesses stick together they'll get more than a pool. We'll see what they do.

    But hey, if a "you're blaming the poor" sort of response is where your ideological reflexes lead you when you see me calling thugs "thugs", so be it. A luxury of seeing and participating in real community-building efforts (over the opposition of destructive thugs) is that you don't have to nod your head politely when people ask you to "understand" thuggery as a means to subtly diffuse the thugs' individual accountability, ill motives, and guilt. I'll spend my time "understanding" the Turkish community defense squad that saved a block of their city, thanks.

    But, at the same time, I don't expect either of us will actually make a difference in this particular situation, so for now it's just words vis-a-vis this situation.

    Parent

    Nuance (none / 0) (#87)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    To me by not examining the riot beyond the rioters, you have essentially laid the mess on the poor.  Not every poor person in London, to clarify, but to a the class of people rioting.

    Call it dorm room mentality or whatever.  But to totally forgo the content of my post and pick-out one remark and write two paragraphs about it, is weak.  You don't have to agree, but you could at least let it roll around a little bit in your head.  Are you the least bit interested in the why's, the perpetrators are easy, they are on camera, identifiable, that easy. "there goes a hooligan".

    You are fixated with the people rioting, when they are the symptom, there will be more, if not there, them somewhere, because because are fed up with being treated like dogs while the elite blame and devise more reasons to put all the worlds woes at their feet.

    Like yourself, you can't even bring yourself to at the very least get beyond the actual criminals, and examine how an act like this could occur, why today, this year, these are the same folks in the same neighborhoods, why is now the time a riot escalated beyond control.  What conditions made people so angry they are beyond caring about their own neighborhoods, when a year all the same characters and they somehow managed not to riot ?  Something changed.

    Why is no one discussing these insured people's fears they might not come out whole ?  No it's all on the hooligans or looters or whatever box they fit in that can explain all of it.

    Why are people taking to the streets in Syria, why Egypt, Libya, anywhere, why is it happening now or then.  To me, the people are the same everywhere, it's the conditions around them that changed, some legitimate, some not, but in any case there is something under the surface that cannot be controlled.  

    Parent

    Do you really think that the (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 09:15:15 PM EST
    shop keeper has the power to prevent the insurance companies from having a "no coverage if it is a riot" clause?

    What would you have him do? Protest after working 70-80 hours a week to make them pay him for the damage caused by thugs?

    The riots to him are like an earthquake. He knows they can happen but he has no way to protect himself.

    Wanna blame someone? Blame the authorities for not immediately clamping down on all the sh&ts doing the damage.

    Parent

    how about waiting til we have the facts?? (none / 0) (#102)
    by observed on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 12:23:40 AM EST
    I very much doubt these are rich kids rioting.

    Parent
    Maybe another Duke and Duchess (none / 0) (#62)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:19:10 PM EST
    can get married. The diamond tiaras and millinery creations  may serve to change the subject.  A good gala might take sad eyes off the 25 percent unemployment in some neighborhoods, and the even worse unemployment statistics in the Council Estates, aka, projects.

    Parent
    Understanding is not difficult (none / 0) (#52)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:38:09 PM EST
    .

    Rioting is fun.  Looting is fun.  Getting something for nothing is cool.  What is difficult to understand is how civil restraints on that kind of behavior have deteriorated so badly.  Disarming the victims can't be helpful either.

    .

    Parent

    You betcha (none / 0) (#93)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:28:32 PM EST
    .

    Dependency breeds hopelessness.  The British welfare state is reaping what it sowed.

    .

    Parent

    And yet, ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:47:38 PM EST
    ... the people who live in those "welfare states" are the happiest in the world.

    Someone should tell them they should be feeling "hopeless".

    Parent

    These riots... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:19:55 PM EST
    did not start with a celebration over a Tottenham Hotspurs victory, they started because the police gunned down a man and the UK government forgot Tottenham while they were giving Barclays Bank a bl*wj*b.

    Point being mob mentality and hooliganism takes hold in every riot, that should not be the focus or the point...the focus should be on the spark that started the fire so we can prevent such sparks in the future, so good people's businesses don't burn down.  Inequality under the law, iron-fisted law & order, and governments exclusively serving a very small segment of the population...these issues must be addressed or we ain't seen the last.

    Again, a false dichotomy (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:36:43 PM EST
    as a lot of the people living in these areas no doubt would prefer that the sociologists wait to do their work after the police and firefighters do theirs.  That is, the first focus has to be exactly the mobs and hooligans and stopping them, so that other people can be safe.  Then the studies can commence that will yield the results that we all can predict already:  People riot for lots of reasons, and some of the reasons are owing to inequalities that ought to be fixed.  But that will take time, and people need safety fixes now.

    Parent
    Fear will do that... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    I understand people fearing for what little they have during an outbreak of violence...but me, I'm more fearful of those who pillaged with pc's, and are plotting to pillage what I haven't even earned yet.

    Yes, peace and order and public safety are wonderful, but not at any price, and not worth all that much when we fail to address the root causes, ensuring it will happen again.  And I just can't get down with collaring every rioter while the criminal masterminds skate, again.  A get out of jail free card for all or equality under the law...anything less is uncivilized and causes chaos and riots.

    Parent

    The dichotomy continues, with (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:49:22 PM EST
    an added layer of fear from your "at any price" line.  Your line, just like your saying that there would be failure to address root causes.  I did not say either; indeed, I said the opposite.

    As for never putting anyone in jail, that's just beyond absurd.  There are murderers, there are rapists, and these are not the same as drug users who are the reason for this knee-jerk reaction.

     

    Parent

    Inequality under the law, (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:40:24 PM EST
    Inequality under the law, iron-fisted law & order, and governments exclusively serving a very small segment of the population...these issues must be addressed or we ain't seen the last.

    Sorry, for me, no dice.

    There has never been and never will be absolute equality under the law. One person's definition of "iron-fisted" is another's "coddling" and neither will result in zero "sparks." Etc.

    It's all just excuses and rationalizations. Some people when they get the tweet to meet at a spot and steal and burn stuff simply decide to stay home, others decide to join the "fun."

    If they really were rebelling against the gvt, wouldn't you think they'd find some gvt facility to burn down instead of some Pakistani immigrant's take-out restaurant?

    Parent

    Maybe it is impossible... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:50:13 PM EST
    to achive true equality under the law bro, but we can certainly get closer than this. Would you not agree there is more than one way to pillage and plunder?  One is acceptable according to the law, and one is not....neither should be.  

    Excuses and rationalizations rain on us with every government press conference and every time the Masters of the Universe testify in front of Congress, if that can be excused and rationalized, so can a riot.    

    Parent

    My point is (none / 0) (#79)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:09:19 PM EST
    A) They're not looting because of "inequality" under the law, and

    2) Regardless of how equal the law is, there will still be youths with a grudge against authority.

    Parent

    Fair enough.... (none / 0) (#108)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 08:49:22 AM EST
    My point(s) is...

    There is more than one brand of looter, and the looters on the street that get collared will be punished, institutionalized looters will not.  This breeds resentment of authority, more prevalent with youth and have-nots, and this resentment boils over into violence on occasion.  The violence is rarely justified, but it is most understandable, and society could do some things to prevent such violence and unrest in the future.

    The young will always have grudges, same as the old will always have grudges...but that is no reason to try and avoid outbreaks of violence and unrest.

    Parent

    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#112)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 11:08:36 AM EST


    Parent
    Ya gotta admit... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 11:16:35 AM EST
    this topic got TL lively again!  A vibrant discussion.

    Debt ceiling and budget wonkin'...zzzzz

    Parent

    Yeah man, the politics of crime is interesting! (none / 0) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 11:24:17 AM EST


    Parent
    I think your number 2 (none / 0) (#115)
    by CST on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 12:22:41 PM EST
    is only half right.  Will there always be some youth with a grudge?  Probably.  But I do think you can temper that to some degree, and that it doesn't always have to result in riots.  Seems to me for something like this to occur you need a lot of youths with a grudge, not just a few.  And that is less likely to happen 'just because'.

    Let me put it this way, you won't see many millenials rioting in the streets.  Why?  Because we grew up in the 90s and as a whole, are not really rebelious in nature compared to other groups.  So I don't think you can simply say "kids will be kids" and write off all other underlying issues.  Because not all "kids being kids" act out in this manner.  There has to be a catalyst for that as well.  Otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more riots.

    Also, I've seen some serious sports riots in my day where there are a lot of out of control drunk youth.  They are nothing like this.  There is some very real anger out there.

    Parent

    CST, I think most of the looters/arsonists/rioters (none / 0) (#116)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 12:40:16 PM EST
    doing their thing in England are millenials.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#117)
    by CST on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 12:54:02 PM EST
    but I don't know that they identify generations across boarders.  That's an interesting question though - how people culturally identify.

    That being said, that's kind of irrelevant to most of my comment.  

    And I should have clarified that I meant older millenials, those of us that grew up primarily in the 90s, and were already onto college before the $hit hit the fan.  I imagine it's different for people who were younger then.  High school students today might technically be millenials (who knows), but they grew up in a very different era.

    In any event, my point still stands, you don't see things like this every day, but there are angry youth everywhere.  There has to be the right mix of events for things to get out of control.  And one of the things in the mix is usually serious opression of some kind.

    Parent

    Lately I think one of the main things in the mix (none / 0) (#118)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 01:22:28 PM EST
    is the opportunity to get an HD ready 42" Plasma TV for free. Another thing is lotsa free time, like you have in the summer when school is out. And the hot weather helps alot...

    Serously though, it seems to me that some want to give the riots and rioters some kind of mystical or profound importance.

    Parent

    it's hot here too (none / 0) (#119)
    by CST on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 01:23:51 PM EST
    and school is out.  And the news cameras are ready to start filming.

    Yet no riots.

    Parent

    Wait until you lose to the Jets again, (none / 0) (#120)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 01:27:35 PM EST
    despite paying Shaun Ellis the big money. I predict chaos!

    Parent
    well played (none / 0) (#121)
    by CST on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 01:32:27 PM EST
    only if it's in the playoffs.

    Besides, the riots around here happen after we win.  You must be mistaking Boston for Vancouver.

    That being said, I don't think you'll see anything like the red sox riots for a very long time.  We're too spoiled these days to get that worked up about sports.  Like I said before, you need some real oppression in the mix :)

    Parent

    Never understood (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by bocajeff on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:39:51 PM EST
    why rioters would burn and loot their own neighborhoods. If you're frustrated with the "ruling" class go to their buildings and riot. Tear down banks, offices, etc...That makes a point! Doing it this way just makes everyone look like petty thieves.

    Another possibility (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:23:24 PM EST
    If the politicians in England are anything like the bought and paid for group we've assembled, civil disobedience is the only recourse left.

    I'm an idealist and a dreamer, and even I am convinced that there's no one left in DC that gives a da#n what the people think.

    There's no way my voice can be heard over the Chamber of Commerce, BP, Chase or any of the other countless corporations that have bought and paid for their favors.

    Welcome Back, 1980s! (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 08:25:09 AM EST
    The minute Cameron became PM, I told all my UK friends:  Expect riots next summer.  Many seemed incredulous.  Puzzled.

    It's the eighties all over again.  Complete with the same lame debates.  And the same claims that it's somehow different than such things in the past.

    I'm surprised that more of TL doesn't see through this.  You guys know your history.

    Because of the large (4.67 / 3) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:01:58 PM EST
    protests about the austerity measures, I think it's pretty obvious what the deeper cause of this is now and I expect things will worsen.

    I also think we will see things like this in our country before all is said and done.  But Europeans aren't as afraid of their governments and protesting and expressing extreme anger like Americans are.

    That because law enforcement in the US (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:29:55 PM EST
    is more than willing to kill the citizens they are sworn to "serve and protect" than they are in Europe. Cops killing a citizen is one of the things that set this off. Such action by cops in the US barely gets a yawn.

    Parent
    And we know this... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:34:32 PM EST
    hence we are more afraid of sticking up for ourselves than our European friends.

    It may be more of a nanny police state in the UK vs. the US, but our mercs run much more violent and are much less tolerant of mass protest.

    Parent

    As a friend of mine says (none / 0) (#56)
    by eric on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:53:32 PM EST
    in France, the government fears the people.  Here in the US, it's the opposite.

    Parent
    Never Underestimate the Laziness (none / 0) (#66)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:35:20 PM EST
    ... of American people, 1 in 3people can't be bothered to vote and you want us to hit the streets to protest the people we have been programed to believe we could someday be, the wealthy ?  Maybe, but after Dancing With the Starz.

    Plus the thing that would keep me on the side of caution isn't the police, I can take a little mace, a club to he head, or an arrest for what I believe it.  It's armed citizens that are waiting for a moment like this to express their rage that scares the hell out of me.  You forget, we have self appointed police that patrol the border, NO, and in certain states, political events.


    Parent

    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#111)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 10:48:11 AM EST
    you are all too correct.

    Parent
    Do the cops there carry guns? (none / 0) (#2)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:04:32 PM EST


    Parent
    Dunno how they handle the (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    protests.  Don't know if being arrested for protesting and being really PO'd would ruin your life forever on paper like it would here.

    Parent
    didn't even think of that one (none / 0) (#16)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:19:25 PM EST
    the paper trail that is.

    Parent
    We just got done with one teenager (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:22:01 PM EST
    After working within the probation system I'm acutely aware of what will follow you for the rest of your life.  I preach it to my kids, because I witnessed some of it.  If social strife hits a breaking point everyone will be forgiven like the 60's.  Until we reach that though, they'll ruin you in order to control you.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:07:00 PM EST
    it's Bastille Day in London. Let the peasants eat cake while we take a bath in champagne.

    People here are only going to stand for it so much longer too.

    Parent

    I think you are right (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:10:51 PM EST
    I also think that the flash mobs are an expression of an undercurrent of hopelessness and rage by our youth.

    Parent
    And if we were Arabs (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:11:44 PM EST
    This would be called "Spring" by our leaders :)

    Parent
    here though it is a mob that must (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:12:16 PM EST
    be put down

    Parent
    One Thing Europeans Don't Have... (none / 0) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:30:00 PM EST
    ... 10 guns for every citizen, instead of torches, we got guns.

    Parent
    Actually (4.50 / 2) (#10)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:13:06 PM EST
    I found this:

    Two nights of rioting in London's Tottenham neighborhood erupted following protests over the shooting death by police of a local man, Mark Duggan. Police were arresting him when the shooting occurred. Over 170 people were arrested over the two nights of rioting, and fires gutted several stores, buildings, and cars. The disorder spread to other neighborhoods as well, with shops being looted in the chaos.

    I agree that frustration with economic issues if most likely at a breaking point with many people, because rioting, looting, and killing people in response to anything, is no way to solve the problem.

    Leaders have come to a point (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:15:40 PM EST
    Where they are deaf to the people and their needs though and they think they are above it all....they won't address the real problems....just the shadow banking financial structure which is about all they have left now.  The people have no other choices at this point that will improve anything for them.

    Parent
    Caption from one of the photos (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:18:16 PM EST
    Former London mayor and future mayoral candidate Ken Livingstone told the BBC that the anger was fuelled by disengagement. "There is a level of despair out there. We have got to have a government that speaks to the whole community, not just the layer at the top."


    Parent
    More (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:14:43 PM EST
    Police Commander Adrian Hanstock says the level of violence escalated beyond all proportion.

    "What was a peaceful vigil by a grieving family was hijacked by mindless criminal thugs who set fire to police cars, who damaged local businesses, who destroyed people's homes," he said.

    "I don't think anybody could have foreseen that such a peaceful protest vigil would evolve into something like this."

    Members of Mr Duggan's family say they are not condoning the violence and his brother, Shaun Hall, has appealed for calm.

    Link

    Parent

    Cameron is threatening them all (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:18:16 PM EST
    telling them they will feel the full force of the law.  Just watched him say it.  Yeah, that's gonna work.  Bring it on and he'll kill you...what a Dumb idiot.  When people are genuinely hurting, talking to them like that just incites more to join them.

    Parent
    I found a good article in the New Yorker (4.00 / 5) (#3)
    by eric on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:06:57 PM EST
    about London HERE.

    It quotes David Lammy, the Labour M.P. for Tottenham, who said back in October:

    These unpalatable and unnecessary cuts will be disastrous for our community. The Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives risk throwing us back to the 1980s, when the frustration and anger that flowed from squandered talent and relentless poverty led to social unrest.

    Now there's a prediction, and the cause.

    The cause of anger, yes (none / 0) (#17)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:20:17 PM EST
    but that does not automatically mean a leap to a cause of criminal behavior.  I'm reading and listening to the Londoners and other Brits -- and I'm also thinking about similar if smaller incidents in our cities lately, with use of social media to organize and spread such behaviors.  On those, I'm reading and listening a lot to local African American leaders, who are asking us to understand and make these important distinctions.

    If we don't do so, if we don't understand causes -- plural -- of the problems:  Then, as we used to say, we can't be part of the solutions -- plural, again.  And we certainly ought to have learned from past urban riots here that applying the wrong solutions can exacerbate problems.

     

    Parent

    The rich aren't listening (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by waldenpond on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:30:47 PM EST
    When asked about rioting, a young man pointed out that two months ago 2000 protested at Scotland Yard and there was no media coverage.  Duh, he points to the multiple media interviews going on...they showed up for the violence didn't they.

    Here 20 teabaggers get together and it's covered, 10000 people can protest the war and there is no coverage.

    Large majorities of the people don't support the govt actions.  If democracy wasn't dead, there wouldn't be violence.  If elected officials were representing more than the 1%, there wouldn't be violence.

    One young woman said she wanted the rich to see they could do what they wanted (she was drinking wine from a looted store).  They can.  

    I do doubt it would ever happen in the US in any significant numbers though.  The people appear to be quite vacuous.

    Parent

    Yes and no. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:44:51 PM EST
    Yes, I read that telling comment from the guy about the previous peaceful protests.  That sure was deja vu all over again from the '60s, as we have lots of studies about media's role then, too.

    But no, I would not be willing to say that this never would happen again the U.S. in significant numbers, since it has happened in significant numbers before, and since we are seeing a fast-increasing use of social media to foment smaller incidents in lots of areas here lately.

    As for whether riots at the London level occurring in the U.S. would mean that participants are not vacuous, I really don't see a logic in that linkage -- unless accepting the very assumption against which I argued above.

    Parent

    Flash mobs (none / 0) (#55)
    by chrisvee on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:50:23 PM EST
    It's quite scary.

    Parent
    I thought this was particularly revealing: (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:20:16 PM EST
    Nobody has been watching Tottenham since the television cameras drifted away after the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985. Most of the people who will be writing, speaking and pontificating about the disorder this weekend have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up in a community where there are no jobs, no space to live or move, and the police are on the streets stopping-and-searching you as you come home from school. The people who do will be waking up this week in the sure and certain knowledge that after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news.

    Link

    When the government affirmatively acts - via austerity programs - to kick people who are already down, to up the misery factor to new levels, why is it so surprising that people don't roll over and ask for more?


    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:23:22 PM EST
    As other reports are saying that many people are begging for more police right now, because the force just doesn't have the numbers to help quell these riots.

    So who are these police officers that are stripping children on their way home from school?

    Parent

    I'm sure if there was rioting on my street, (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:39:25 PM EST
    or if I owned a business in the area where there is violence, I'd be afraid and wanting to feel safe, too - everyone wants to feel safe and secure.  But those who are looking for police involvement to quell the rioting may not be the same people who feel they have been subject to years of harassment by law enforcement and do not see them as their friend and protector.

    People are angry, they are frustrated, they see no hope for their futures, and don't think anyone who could do something about it gives a flying fig about them.  Is rioting the answer?  How would you suggest people get the attention of the powers-that-be when all reasoable methods have been ignored?  Should people just give up?  Just resign themselves to being silently desperate?

    Sadly, the response of the government probably will not be to listen more but to punish more severely - wouldn't want the rest of the people to get any ideas, now, would we?

    Parent

    What if many of them are rioting mostly because (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:48:03 PM EST
    it's an adrenaline rush? You know, free booze, high-end merchandise, get to break and burn stuff...

    Parent
    Pretty the Adrenaline Has Been There Since We... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:08:56 PM EST
    ... were in caves.

    What if many of them are rioting mostly because it's an adrenaline rush? You know, free booze, high-end merchandise, get to break and burn stuff...

    That always coincides with economically depressed people, in economic plight, right after a spark, say a killing by a cop ?

    I suppose the French stormed the Bastille because they like the adrenaline rush.  Pretty sure famine, empty bellies, unrealistic tax levies, and just general dissatisfaction of being at the bottom while the rich spend countless hours figuring out how they can make the poor pay even more to support their gluttonous lifestyles.

    IOW maybe they are fed us with the BS.

    Parent

    Deja Vu (none / 0) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:32:13 PM EST
    No Internet then, of course, but some of these indignant comments are reminding me powerfully of the reaction to the Watts riots way back when.

    Parent
    gyrfalcon - I had that same thought... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:54:02 PM EST
    I think it comes from fear, mostly; I can remember when MLK, Jr. was assassinated, and the rioting that took place in Baltimore - about 10 miles from where I lived.  People were flat-out terrified.

    I think people have had about as much as they can stand, which means we may be on the cusp of some very ugly times.

    Parent

    Youths jonesing after power is quite common (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:35:43 PM EST
    and not at all limited to the economically depressed. For many/most youths, the BS is that everyone else (it seems) is always telling them what to do. Any incident can be incendiary and used as a rationalization for one's actions...

    Parent
    And many folks (none / 0) (#68)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:39:22 PM EST
    Including those on the left, are calling for MORE police action to stop this nonsense.

    Three nights of violence in London have provoked a furious debate in Britain about police readiness and riot control methods, with ordinary citizens, newspapers and politicians calling for the use of rubber or plastic bullets, water cannon and tear gas.

    While tear gas and water cannon are frequently used in Europe, such riot control methods are unknown in mainland Britain. Nor do police officers carry firearms except in exceptional cases, usually related to terrorism cases and combating armed gangs. Their normal arsenal in the face of public disturbances amounts to batons and riot shields.

    SNIP

    Some on the left are also calling for extraordinary measures. Diane Abbott, whose district includes the trouble spot of Hackney in east London, demanded the imposition of a curfew, telling the Evening Standard newspaper: "These young people, who seem to have no stake in society, are trashing their own communities. We cannot continue to have increasing numbers of looters on the streets night after night."

    And the former mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, a left-wing member of the Labour Party, said the police should be allowed to start using water cannon to disperse rioters.



    Parent
    Several things: certainly, order (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 03:56:59 PM EST
    needs to be restored, as a lot of innocent people are being injured, and their property/businesses being destroyed, but it kind of irks me when the rationale for extraordinary control measures is "even the left" are calling for it.  Left, right - so what?

    Second, maybe the reason these young people have no stake in society is that they are unable to find work - kind of hard to be connected if you can't participate, and you are viewed as little more than a drain on society.

    Third, maybe the reason for destruction of their own communities is about hating the place where they feel they are trapped, and the conditions they feel they are powerless to change.  Burn it down, and maybe something better will rise in its place.  

    Note: I have no idea if that is the mindset behind rampaging in their own communities, just suggesting it as a possibility.

    Finally, mobs are never all of one mind; some are no doubt acting out their anger at government, others are just taking advantage of the chaos to acquire things they could never afford.


    Parent

    My guess is that's the right answer (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:51:58 PM EST
    For most, it isn't about standing up for a principle - it's about the rush.  Those with principles aren't being violent and hurting their neighbors.

    Parent
    it can easily be both (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by CST on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    In "rough" neighborhoods, the police are often the enemy but you still want them to be your savior.

    Who else do you turn to in a situation like this?  The military?  I do not doubt that people are angry with the police.  I also do not doubt that when people are scared they call the police.  It's very possible for both emotional responses to happen to the same group of people.

    Parent

    The '80s were a good time in the UK (none / 0) (#96)
    by BTAL on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:56:43 PM EST
    Lived there from '79-82 and then from '86-'90.  The change/improvement from the streets full of garbage and various and other direct impacts on the general population from the numerous union strikes was incredible.   Thatcher made the UK turn the corner before it went off the cliff.

    Parent
    Police brutality and/or murder... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:12:35 PM EST
    is a common catalyst for expressing your rage against the machine.

    Like Bradley and Sublime said about the '92 LA Riots....

    Cuz everybody in the hood has had it up to here,
    It's getting harder and harder and harder each and every year.

    Some kids went in a store with their mother,
    I saw her when she came out she was gettin some Pampers.

    They said it was for the black man,
    they said it was for the mexican,
    and not for the white man.

    But if you look at the streets it wasn't about Rodney King,
    It's bout this f*cked up situation and these f*cked up police.
    It's about coming up and staying on top
    and screamin' 187 on a mother f*ckin' cop.
    It's not written on the paper it's on the wall.
    National guard??!
    Smoke from all around.

    April 26, 1992

    F*ck I remember that (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:56:33 PM EST
    On the roof of my Hollywood sh*thole apartment building watching the flames creep toward Santa Monica Blvd., then Sunset, then Hollywood.  Don't tell me that sh*t can't happen again.  My son deserves much better than what looks to be coming.  Canadian bacon, anyone?

    Parent
    I'd agree with B&S that it wasn't about RKing, (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:09:58 PM EST
    But I don't think for a second is was specifically about the police.

    The rioters were, for the most part, youths. What youth - anywhere, any time - doesn't often feel like they've got no control? That everyone else is always telling them what to do and what not to do? What youth isn't full of vim and vigor and is very emotionally available to being caught up in an action that feels so powerful and liberating?

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    general teenage angst and stupidity and mob mentality taking over is a part, but I think how LAPD was/is running roughshod over certain communities was a critical component to the riots...and the verdict, right or wrong, was the straw that broke that camel's back.  

    Same elements in England now...hatred of authority deemed abusive and unfair boils over after a particular incident.  And the knuckleheads who just wanna break things take advantage of the opportunity, mob mentality takes hold, etc.

    Parent

    There's always someone (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:45:01 PM EST
    who's in charge. Youth's always rebel against authority. Getting caught up in a mob is exhilarating.

    I once participated in a massive, hours-long, late-night snowball fight in college - 100's of guys/gals from my school vs. 100's of guys/gals from the other school less than a mile away. No real major damage that I am aware of, but it was first-hand experience of just what a being in a mob is like. Among other things, the cops showed up and got pelted by 100's and 100's of snowballs. In a mob you do sh1t you'd never even think of doing otherwise...

    Parent

    Just one experience myself... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 02:58:20 PM EST
    down in Tallahassee, after a 'Noles victory over the hated Gators.  Started out with just people partying in the street, I was banging Seminole beats on my djembe when a young lady invited me on the roof of here car to lead the singing and chanting.  I dented the sh*t out of it, and she didn't care. Gridlock ensued, and the cops showed up and closed off both sides of the block, boxing us in.  Next thing I new somebody lit a matress on fire...I'm fairly convinced there would have been no pyro action had the cops just let us party till we got tired of it, and gridlock would have subsided naturally.

    Parent
    Good post here (none / 0) (#22)
    by smott on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 12:33:50 PM EST
    http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html

    Yeah (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:00:06 PM EST
    One of the crimes to be charged: inciting violence through social media. How will they find the rioters not caught in the act? Camera images.

    Not sure why that's shocking. CCTV has been around in London for decades.  Anyone who doesn't realize they are being filmed while on the streets of London and outlying areas and who are possibly engagedin the commission of a crime, either doesn't pay attention or is a complete fool. Either way, cameras are used as part of a standard practice of investigation.

    From the 2005 article I linked to:

    In 2001, the country had a million CCTV cameras; last year [2004] it had four times as many. Barry Hughill, of the human rights organisation Liberty, has described Britain as "the CCTV capital of the world".

    SNIP

    Yet its growth is not driven so much by the central government but by private companies and local governments keen to keep their town centres free of "yobs" and safe for shoppers.

    The "big brother" analogy is often used but isn't quite right. There is no central surveillance bureaucracy. Rather, much of the spying is done by private security outfits on behalf of companies, councils and transport operators. They will contact police when they see a crime or -- as with the London bombers -- the camera footage will be taken and viewed by investigators.
    Big Brother Minus the Beaurocracy ? (none / 0) (#35)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:42:25 PM EST
    The "big brother" analogy is often used but isn't quite right. There is no central surveillance bureaucracy. Rather, much of the spying is done by private security outfits on behalf of companies, councils and transport operators.

    I didn't know it wasn't state run.  Privatizing security and punishment is the beginning of total privatization of the government until it becomes just another arm of a singular conglomerate.

    Parent

    It's been (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:47:44 PM EST
    almost 40 years that they've had CCTV. Maybe that will happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

    Parent
    Governments often attempt (none / 0) (#88)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:58:53 PM EST
    to hamper or contain dissent, no matter how they may claim to appreciate differences of opinion or claim undying love of democratic principles.   The latest technologies or techniques put into use eventually are overcome or gone around in the face of sufficient unrest.  For example,  Baron Haussmann's commission for the modernization of Paris with straight, wide boulevards (with the exception of Marais) was more for control than beauty.  An historically sensitive Napoleon III apparently had  street revolutions on his mind---but the strength of the citizens' various concerns over time were key to unlocking that control.  
    I believe governments, no matter how they manipulate the news or dismiss violent protests or riots as due to just looters and losers must be concerned with the underlying causes, even if it is only for a more benign purpose such as kicking it down the road, or for the malignant reason of effective oppression.   You would think that governments would have learned that Alexandra's advice to Nicholas II was not so good, although watching the global penchant for austerity for the poor makes me wonder.

    Parent
    Google involved now (none / 0) (#40)
    by waldenpond on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 01:53:19 PM EST
    They started an facial recognition ID item to target the 'perpetrators'.  Join the oligarchy!  Google... demonstrating what it means to be a good citizen in today's culture.

    Parent
    We can agree on the cause, it's the fault (none / 0) (#77)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 04:01:07 PM EST
    that's the issue.

    Yes the austerity measure have resulted in a disgruntled youth but the austerity measure arose from the state promising more then it could deliver.

    Same problem here in the states.   The fault lied in making the promises in the first place.  Not the reality that is being forced upon gov'ts like Britain and the US now that the economy is faltering.

    It is too bad we can't all have a free lunch but that blame resides with the politicians.  There will always be rich people.  There are rich people in North Korea, just not that many.  The idea of fairness and such is misguided.   The real issue is you can't promise more then you can deliver and politicians all over the western world have been doing that for decades.

    The problem (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:07:20 PM EST
    is that the austerity is only being welded on certain classes of people. Now if everyone had to take their austerity medicine that would be one thing but when you are asking one group to continue with their champagne baths while you are snarling at others that they shouldn't have any gruel you are going to create massive problems.

    And building an empire is killing us and that's something that I bet the majority of Americans never signed up for.

    Parent

    My spouse just got home (none / 0) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 05:57:01 PM EST
    and informed me that this is "the European Summer" and it's a hot one.

    Why do the London looters hate indie music? (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 06:22:32 PM EST
    LOS ANGELES (TheWrap.com) - More than 150 independent record labels were dealt a huge blow on Monday night, when a facility owned by Sony Digital Audio Disc Corporation was destroyed in a fire that resulted from the riots that have torn through England in the past three days.


    Yawn, Everyone Hates Indie Music (none / 0) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 02:10:01 AM EST
    Nice quote, no need to explain how they are hurt, just say it was the looters and some idiot with post it as fact.

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    Don't be lazy, google for yourself. (none / 0) (#110)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 10, 2011 at 09:31:49 AM EST


    Parent
    London Riots | 116 comments (116 topical)

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