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"Who's going to watch a debate between the two Cuban guys?...Who cares?"
The funniest thing here is the GOP mouthpiece that is FOX is getting torched by a Republican candidate. Parent
The Pro's claim this is one of the most consistently accurate, and, stable results out of all the indicators they use in predicting outcomes.
The difference between what they say, and, what they, actually do is the thing we'll be most looking for in the first election. Parent
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Look, that's true as far as it goes. My opinion, that I have been harping on for over a year now, is that times have changed. People are pissed in a way they have never been pissed before and Donald is made for the moment.
You are right, we will know soon enough and there is hardly a better test of that the the pain in the ass Iowa caucus. Parent
-/ Parent
LINK
they could probably register that many by Tuesday. Parent
he is just paying hundreds of people with clipboards and voter registration info to walk around his events to "fool" us.
Out of the realm of possibilities? Look who we're talking about? PT Barnum of the 21st century! Parent
...white, under-educated, blue collar, working people
Used to be the Democratic base, until they felt abandoned. Parent
Used to be the Democratic base, until they felt abandoned.
They felt "abandoned" when the Civil Rights Act outlawed the horror they had inflicted for a century on black citizens. The Democratic base then added Southern blacks who were not previously permitted to vote. No loss to the party.
Nixon's "Southern Strategy" legitimized the bigotry and hatred of their country of the poor whites and gave them a political voice. I don't want them back. Do you? Parent
Yeah, I'd like those voters back. Parent
When discussing how he'll make his revolution happen, one thing Sanders often talks about is mobilizing people who don't tend to turn out to vote. "Sixty percent of the American people are not likely to vote in the coming [midterm] election," he told a crowd in Waterloo, Iowa, back when he was considering whether to run. "You think you can bring around change with that dynamic? You can have the best human being in the world in the White House fighting all the right fights, and he or she will fail." But beyond these vague and theoretical nonvoters -- whom politicians of all stripes frequently claim they'll be able to conjure-- Sanders has a very specific idea about just which demographic Democrats need to improve among: white people, especially older ones living in rural areas.
But beyond these vague and theoretical nonvoters -- whom politicians of all stripes frequently claim they'll be able to conjure-- Sanders has a very specific idea about just which demographic Democrats need to improve among: white people, especially older ones living in rural areas.
We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like [former President Bill] Clinton or even like [former Democratic presidential candidates Michael] Dukakis or [Walter] Mondale, all those guys, [George] McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits. We don't want an indoor prime minister type, or the Danes or the Dutch or the Italians, or a [Russian Federation President Vladimir] Putin. Can you imagine Putin getting elected here? We want a guy as president.
George. W. Bush, the "hero." I just threw up a little in my mouth.
After saying that, he now loves the erudite, complicated, indoor sport (basketball), non-posing, non tough-talking Obama. Dude has issues. Why does MSNBC pay him to make them public? Parent
A lot of the points made in this amusing video are pretty obvious, but it's always a good idea to remind ourselves that trolls want you to get upset and angry at them. I'm not sure I agree that ignoring trolls is the best tactic in all cases, though; usually it is, but sometimes it's better to respond in ways that subvert their sadistic intentions -- with facts and mockery, refusing to take their outrage bait and ignoring their transparent leading questions
I'm not sure I agree that ignoring trolls is the best tactic in all cases, though; usually it is, but sometimes it's better to respond in ways that subvert their sadistic intentions -- with facts and mockery, refusing to take their outrage bait and ignoring their transparent leading questions
But truth is I don't hate those movies, I'm just not their number one fan.
Point is I have a pretty, I think, humanist view on the issue, it's extremely rare for someone to disrupt for absolutely no reason at all. I hope.
Basically in retrospect if I understand the definition of trolling I wasnt trolling avengers fans cause I actually dont really think those movies are so great, i was speaking a sincere opinion.
But i was being a dick. Like a vegetarian giving everyone a lecture during thanksgiving dinner.
In contrast I do think trump is trolling republicans and our democracy at large. Parent
I've trolled (none / 0) (#77) by Kmkmiller on Wed Jan 27, 2016 at 08:51:43 PM MDT
What do you consider "hanging out"? Parent
It took two joints to get through it.
Awsum. Parent
When all is said and done, this is purely a commercial enterprise by Fox. It is a moneymaker for them. They use the candidates to create a spectacle in order to sell us sh-t.
Trump must figure that he has little or nothing to gain by yet another appearance in which most of his time is spent just standing there.
Personally, I glad that he will be raising money for our veterans rather than helping to fill the coffers of the bloated imbeciles at FOX. Our government has been shamefully neglecting our veterans. So good luck to Trump in this endeavor.
These debates are presented in such a way that we are made to feel that the moderators are at least as important, and sometimes much moreso, than the candidates.
The news-people think that they are the stars. And when they see many millions are watching, they get all puffed up and self-satisfied.
Having them get millions of viewers less because Trump isn't there might give their fat egos a little hit. And I wouldn't mind if their advertisers were to lose a chunk of change either.
Who's gonna tune in to see Crazy-eyes Cruz or somnambulating Carson or Florina the Nasty, or poor befuddled Paul, or pancake-brain Jeb?
Not I. Parent
Even though I beat him in the first six debates, especially the last one, Ted Cruz wants to debate me again. Can we do it in Canada?
Lord Damp Nut Lord Dump Tan Old Damp Runt
The things we do for entertainment, huh?
Let's see what else we can have fun with...
Hillary Clinton
Chilly Rant Lion Thrill Only Can I Bernie Sanders:
Brained Sneers Benders Arisen Benders In Ears Sabered Sinner Brains Ends Ere Parent
Something was a little different in the Senate on Tuesday morning. And Sen. Lisa Murkowski noticed it. The Alaska Republican was one of only a few lawmakers in the Capitol building following the weekend blizzard, and it was her job to handle the formalities of delaying Senate business until her colleagues could get back to work. After finishing a bit of parliamentary business, she described what she saw in the ornate chamber. "As we convene this morning, you look around the chamber, the presiding officer is female. All of our parliamentarians are female. Our floor managers are female. All of our pages are female."
The Alaska Republican was one of only a few lawmakers in the Capitol building following the weekend blizzard, and it was her job to handle the formalities of delaying Senate business until her colleagues could get back to work. After finishing a bit of parliamentary business, she described what she saw in the ornate chamber.
"As we convene this morning, you look around the chamber, the presiding officer is female. All of our parliamentarians are female. Our floor managers are female. All of our pages are female."
The icing on the cake will be a woman as president too. :)
I would argue the people that voted for Obama made the best decision, and if they are gonna vote for Bernie, they have a proven record of voting for the best decision.
I am not locked in on Bernie at all, but GD that rationalization and pretzel twisting as to why he is a poor, poor, choice leads me to believe that if that is all they have, 'voting for a slogan' Bernie must be doing something right.
Still trying to process how one spends a lot of energy tearing down Obamacare, then all of a sudden, it's not so bad, and the better alternative, gets no support because it can't possibly work. It's going to really be something over the next 8 years when Obamacare costs really increase and what the nay sayers are going to say when after 8 years of the same, HRC, their cost have doubled, at the very least.
What the Sanders staffer said is incorrect and misleading.
But considering you went from Reagan to Clinton and Clinton went from Goldwater to Clinton, the whole Churchill bit doesn't jive with that, nor does your original comment. Many D's have never been R's, including me, and many of us have moved further left.
For the record, if a I ran into a younger me, he would not call me a sellout like your younger version would. I would imagine he would ask for some cash, to borrow my car, and if my GF was around he probably ask where she can be found in his time continuum.
I would slap him, give him a couple bucks and tell him to get lost, but that is me and even at as a youth I disliked Reagan probably more than GWB in that I was experimenting with the things he was telling parents and kids to call the cops and report their loved ones over. He effected my youth greatly and ensure everyone that age and younger who experimented, would have to deal with years of the police state.
You found that appealing, OK. My parents loved Reagan and I don't have the stones to ask about GWB because I fear I know the answer.
Maybe you are wrong about Sanders, you know, like how you were wrong about Reagan. Joking, but you clearly don't get Sanders, and I would argue it's because you are the very word you said younger Donald would call you. If you want to call that temperamental or age educing wisdom, so be it, but to insist that only the foolish would vote for Sanders because you were foolish and voted for Reagan, is without a doubt, projecting. Maybe some of those people are leaps and bound ahead of a younger you or even current you in their believes and their convictions.
I will probably vote for HRC, but I don't know, what I do know is I am sick of everyone acting like only a fool would vote for Sanders. No one is calling his ideas bad, no it's that somehow a Clinton is going to get more cooperation in Congress than Sanders because her legislation is more moderate. I would argue who is the real fool? Clinton could push legislation declaring 'puppies are cute' and it would not pass the House.
Maybe my favorite part is seeing "liberal lions". Rush to the barricades to defend a hack like Megyn Kelly and her foul employer FOX news because it serves their purpose of the day.
Let's be honest about that first GOP debate hosted by Brett Baier and Megyn Kelly: we were all impressed that Megyn asked Donald Trump some substantive questions. Of course, the backlash from Trump and his sycophants somehow made the man even more popular, contrary to what usually happens to candidates when they appear so defensive. The yammerers at Morning Joe were discussing this latest kerfuffle between Fox News and the Donald, as expected
Capitulating to politicians' ultimatums about a debate moderator violates all journalistic standards, as do threats, including the one leveled by Trump's campaign manager Corey Lewandowski toward Megyn Kelly.
I JUST don't know.
LINK Parent
And that response from Fox News to the whole dust up is just juvenile. Parent
"My willingness to accept Clinton as a Democratic presidential nominee doesn't stem from any great passion for Hillary herself -- though I respect her -- but from my aversion to the impotent game of 'Let's find an insurgent candidate who will topple a centrist front-runner!' played by the left every four to eight years."
In that regard, Walsh was where Paul Krugman seems to be today, in cautioning the Democratic left, "Don't let idealism veer into destructive self-indulgence."
Speaking for myself only, I support Mrs. Clinton not only because I feel that she's the best and most qualified candidate for the job, but because for the country's sake and given the nutballs in the GOP, we really need to win this one. While I like Bernie Sanders, were he to somehow become our party's nominee, our chances of retaining the White House in November will likely be rendered very problematic.
Aloha. Parent
When you're older, as both of us are, you tend to resent the perceived impertinence underscoring such a question posed by that little smarta$$.
But if you're as smart as Hillary Clinton, you recognize that such moments provide you with an opportunity to make your case to everyone who's watching. And she handled that moment very well indeed.
"We can't give in to terrorizations of any of our employees," said a company spokesman. "Capitulating to politicians' ultimatums about a debate moderator violates all journalistic standards, as do threats including the one leveled by Trump's campaign manager ... toward Megyn Kelly."
To be clear, this is what started all of it:
You've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs and disgusting animals, does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president? And how do you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton - that you are part of the war on women?
I do like Cruz's new pitch, 'Ducking Donald' followed with this lameness:
the Texas conservative joked that Trump was "a fragile soul [whose] hair might stand" if hit with tough questions.
So, ok.
Let's talk about FOX. I love that you posted that quote. I only linked to it and considered posting a quote but it would have required replying to my own comment. You know. That statement is mind boggling. It really is. From a major news organization about a major political candidate. Boggling.
It was like "MOOOOOOOM........did you hear what he said?!!?!? He threatened me!!!! MOOOOOOOOOM!!!!"
I literally spit up when I read that. Parent
I truly hope the show never gets anywhere near the WH, of course ... because, while it is funny (verging on a kind of hysteria now), we might not be prepared for the economic loss that so many would really endure and--certainly--we could not anticipate the effects wrought by his authoritarian personality. Parent
I can laugh as he incinerates the Republican Party but I have a very bad feeling that he knows exactly what he is doing and it just might work on a larger audience.
Not funny. No sir. Parent
So if Donald Trump proved the political universe wrong and won the Republican presidential nomination, he would be creamed by Hillary Clinton, correct? A new survey of likely voters might at least raise momentary dyspepsia for Democrats since it suggests why it wouldn't be a cakewalk. The survey by Washington-based Mercury Analytics is a combination online questionnaire and "dial-test" of Trump's first big campaign ad among 916 self-proclaimed "likely voters" (this video shows the ad and the dial test results). It took place primarily Wednesday and Thursday and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percent. Nearly 20 percent of likely Democratic voters say they'd cross sides and vote for Trump, while a small number, or 14 percent, of Republicans claim they'd vote for Clinton. When those groups were further broken down, a far higher percentage of the crossover Democrats contend they are "100 percent sure" of switching than the Republicans.
A new survey of likely voters might at least raise momentary dyspepsia for Democrats since it suggests why it wouldn't be a cakewalk.
The survey by Washington-based Mercury Analytics is a combination online questionnaire and "dial-test" of Trump's first big campaign ad among 916 self-proclaimed "likely voters" (this video shows the ad and the dial test results). It took place primarily Wednesday and Thursday and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percent.
Nearly 20 percent of likely Democratic voters say they'd cross sides and vote for Trump, while a small number, or 14 percent, of Republicans claim they'd vote for Clinton. When those groups were further broken down, a far higher percentage of the crossover Democrats contend they are "100 percent sure" of switching than the Republicans.
He has been already making some very moderate and sensible sounding noises. Working across the aisle. Having the government control prescription drug prices. Donald is not a conservative. They are right about that. When and if he gets the nomination..........
Just don't underestimate him. S'all I'm sayin. Look where that got the Republican Party.
I would also say don't underestimate the resistance to Hillary or his ability to exploit it. Parent
Should he reach the general election, I doubt that he will enjoy a repeat benefit born of underestimation. IMO, Hillary Clinton knows exactly how to deal with his persona. Parent
I see absolutely no evidence that the underestimation would be any less in a general election. In fact exactly the opposite with your comment as exhibit A.
I see nothing but sneering dismissal of him in a general election. Not unlike the sneering dismissal of his chances in a republican primary until the noticed they were up to their ass in alligators. Parent
he knocked her and Bubba both back on their heels and shut them up with a couple of tweets
The story was that Trump has a proven history of making sexist statements, even Hillary's calling him sexist was not really a story as very many journalists, pundits and politicians(even many Republicans) had said or at least strongly inferred it. " Suddenly Trump throws a "couple of tweets" out and the media allows that to become the story. Instead of focusing on the here and now, reporting on Trumps very public and blatant rude and crude statement, they choose to rehash ancient(politically speaking)history, it wasn't even a shiny object, yet once again they became obsessed with it.
Instead of using this as a platform to actually discuss the very real gender issues that face this country the media chose to be distracted by a "couple of tweets".
There are three main reasons for the rise of Trump: His appeal to the knuckle draggers of the GOP base, the total fecklessness of the Republican party and probably most importantly the abject failure of the press.
For sure, politics ain't beanbag, and a little chin music is expected, but when the umps are consistently calling the high and tight ones as strikes anybody can be a HOF pitcher. Parent
The media hates Hillary. Newsflash.
They seem to love Donald. Whatever.
These are the way of the world. Is it fair? No. Is it right? No, Does that change anything? No.
This is the world we live in. It's time we started factoring it into thoughts about a general election. Parent
As to the general, his rabid base will contribute no more than it does in the primary, those people would never vote Dem in any case. The fecklessness of the Republican party can only hurt him with tepid support and the barely hidden loathing from many of the "intellectuals" the media can do no worse then it is currently doing and with just a modicum of sensibility(ie. actually focusing on the issues) it would probably hurt him.
I am really hoping that Trump wins the nomination, he has many weaknesses that for various reasons have not been hit upon yet. If nothing else the American people are very liable to get bored with his shtick and if they don't and they are stupid enough to elect this clown than we were probably doomed in the first place. Parent
HRC is not ready for Trump in any way, her campaigns biggest flaw is not being nimble(your word) or even flexible. Trump shut her sexism angle down with one tweet, and as far as I can tell, she hasn't mentioned it since.
I do think Trump has a huge flaw, his answer to Megyn Kelly's question about him being at war with women is to start a war with a woman at Fox News. I hope they are saving this for the general, and I hope they are going to push it day in and day out.
Funny about the above comment in regards to Fox News reply, around 18 hours later, it's old news, we are already on to the O'Reilly bit. I mean this election could not be covered in any other age but the digital one. The nightly news and papers would have to report like 3 big Trump stories some days.
No real point other than with Trump you can't really focus on one thing because before you know it, there is another. None of this dissecting and experts and blah, blah, blah, because while the experts are dissecting Trump, he's created another story. Parent
Fair enough
What would happen if he walks onto the debate stage after its to late to put our a podium? Or pulls some other stunt like flying in like Mary Poppins. Can you say it's impossible? Point is, this could still go so many different ways. Which is why the media and most of the country is transfixed.
But, yeah, the guy is a crappy politician. Just a boob who got lucky. Parent
I am going to be laughing about this all day. Parent
Or maybe just giving Jeb a wedgie, who knows with that rascal. Parent
I can't help put picture the look of shock that would be on Trump's face and the first time he's ever been stunned to silence while staring at the tighty whities that aren't so white. Parent
So much is about timing and different arguments/responses for different election frames. For example: It appears that Trump has near perfected the art of baiting his selected opponents/targets, and when they take the emotional bait ... he wins. Clinton knows that too ... she saves her fire ... and has his lunch later. IMO. Parent
will duck a debate, and preach to veterans,
to non-stop standing ovations. Parent
If issues didn't exist and it was strictly and ONLY a cultural thing, and it was Bloomberg vs Bernie vs Trump, I'd vote Bloomberg.
Since there are actual issues, and since Mr. Sanders is far ahead of either of those two rich, arrogant, bigoted fools in patriotism and political experience, your point is...?
"If the sky was green instead of blue, I'd vote for..." Parent
Which horse you like may say something about you, but it says next to nothing about the horse. Parent
I understand why millennials are attracted to Bernie Sanders. It's for the very same reasons why I was supporting the Rev. Jesse Jackson during the 1988 Democratic primaries, rather than eventual nominee Michael Dukakis. When you're younger, more often than not you're motivated by your passions for the immediate moment. As we age, those passions are often tempered by the wisdom we gain from both time and experience.
The other day, I stopped and wondered that if I had possessed the knowledge and maturity in 1988 that I have today, would I still have supported Jackson. And I had to admit to myself, probably not.
My younger self would have likely chastised the older me for selling out, while my elder alter ego would have observed that it is often better -- not always, but often -- to be pragmatic and ultimately successful, than to be defiant and eventually marginalized. As to who is right, well, they both are, each in his own inimitable way.
The one good thing about Sanders' young supporters is that, say what one will about them, they certainly weren't raised by their parents to be doormats.
I disagree that heading to the right is pragmatic just because you are getting older. I would say I am more liberal than when I was younger for the very same reason, I understand more how the world works than as a younger me. Positions in which I have have moved from left-center to way left, the poor, the military/foreign policy, prisons, inequality, and the rights of minorities including LBGT.
As far as taking advise from someone I don't know who was born a hundred years before me, I will pass considering that conservatism in the British 40's was nothing like it is in modern day America and a quote that is as silly as 'A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet'.
My point, that is about the most ridiculous excuse for Sanders popularity I have read to date, Winston Churchill, Jesse Jackson, Michael Dukakis, I mean seriously. Talk about three names I never thought I read in the same post, much less one explaining why the older guy thinks young people like Sanders.
Also, you do realize you called yourself a sell-out, right ? To which I would reply that might explain why you don't get Sanders more than what is wrong with today's youth.
I believe I am around 5 years younger than you at 45. Parent
Robert Reich:
In my view, she's [Clinton] the most qualified candidate for president of the political system we now have. But Bernie Sanders is the most qualified candidate to create the political system we should have, because he's leading a political movement for change.
But Bernie Sanders is the most qualified candidate to create the political system we should have, because he's leading a political movement for change.
And Charlie Pierce, responding to a Fred Hiatt editorial in the Washington Post:
What Bernie Sanders proposes may be blue-sky stuff, but at least it's looking at the sky. It's not the shoe-gazing trudge toward oligarchy with which The Washington Post is comfortable.
And this, from Salon:
What Sanders supporters and Americans at large should really ask is, when has any truly significant political change come about without the people becoming politically active and demanding it? Did civil rights legislation make it through Congress because LBJ and other old white men thought it was the right thing to do, or because millions of people decided to stand up and resist? Did the political reforms of the Progressive Era happen because Theodore Roosevelt believed in the virtues of democracy, or because the agrarian populists, labor organizations, and radical movements threatened the status quo? Would the right to vote have finally been given to women if not for several decades of organizing and campaigning? As Noam Chomsky's favorite anarcho-syndicalist, Rudolf Rocker, wrote many years ago: "What is important is not that governments have decided to concede certain rights to the people, but the reason why they have had to do this."
"What is important is not that governments have decided to concede certain rights to the people, but the reason why they have had to do this."
I don't expect the Clinton supporters to agree with any of this, but it does seem like food for thought. Parent
The president was impacted by the loud voices outside the establishment. And in fact, the establishment president ultimately adopted and implemented those reforms. If anything, it's a case to keep his loud voice outside the system to a point.
There are some Clinton supporters who disagree with Sander's vision. There are others of us who just don't think that he is the best person to implement that vision on a presidential level. I wouldn't automatically assume we all fall into that first camp. Parent
But you know, Anne, Sam Adams was arguably the principal protagonist who incited what became the American Revolution. But once events were set into motion and open hostilities with the mother country Great Britain commenced, people decided that this firebrand wasn't the guy who should necessarily lead the effort, and he was moved aside for good reason.
And that's the way I feel about Bernie Sanders in the present. He's the guy who can strike the match and light the flame, but I don't think he's the right guy to be carrying the torch going forward.
Since I'll be 55 next month, I'm almost ten years older than you, and I can tell you that I'm a lot more tempered in my outlook now than I was ten years ago. It's not that I'm any less liberal, but rather that my own life's experiences, particularly in politics, has led me to alter my approach in attempting to accomplish my objectives.
Hell, I grew up in a Republican-leaning family, and at age 19 the very first person I voted for president was Ronald Reagan in 1980, so it doesn't get more conservative than that. But within eight years, as I shook off my family's political identity and started to formulate one of my own, I came to profoundly regret that vote for Reagan and had become decidedly far-left liberal.
As I got older, I learned that proactive change is very rarely (if ever) realized immediately, and that if you truly want to effect conditions as they are, you best adopt a long-term outlook and adapt your choices accordingly.
kids. Parent
Another profile I just saw the guy doesn't just say "Bernie 2016" it says "you angry and you need therapy" if you disagree.
Oh and this wasn't a millennial, looks like a dude in his 50s.
Anyway I don't get it. I have confrontational opinions (my hot take about Coates criticism of clinton is even a tad embarrasing in retrospect) sure but I wouldn't put it on my profile in a way to convey a me vs you sorta paradigm. Parent
The first thing you can do here is stop speaking in jsrgon like you're somehow in the know. I mean, what's with this "overton window" crap? This isn't PoliSci 101, and this ain't our first time at the rodeo for most of us here. (And if you even dare to try and explain to me what the term means, I swear I'm going to hunt down your inner child and kick its little a$$.)
As the late House Speaker Tip O'Neill used to quip, politics ain't beanbag. My advice to you is something I believe I said to you earlier -- grow a pair. You either need to develop a thicker hide and not take things so personally, or you better find something else to do that's more suitable to your sensitivities.
There's an old Persian proverb that I often quote, "Dogs bark, and the caravan passes." Let the dogs bark, and move on.
If you support Mrs. Clinton, then be proactive and volunteer for her campaign. But please dispel yourself of any illusions that you're likely to change a political partisan's mind in the midst of an election campaign, because you're not. So why bother, and incur only frustration for your efforts?
The Hillary folks there are outnumbered and getting hammered by a bunch of snotty punks. They could use some help.
And, check out this WaPo editorial from today entitled "Bernie Sanders Fiction Filled Campaign." Parent
Not being snarky here, just so you know. But I know from my own experience that in the process of defending someone you weren't particularly that enthused about as a candidate, you can actually find yourself becoming a convincing advocate - not just convincing others, but yourself in the process.
Ask yourself this: if Clinton wasn't running, what would you be doing? Who would you be supporting? Parent
I would probably not campaign for Bernie but just watch with a bemused detachment as the Trump people dismantled him bit by bit.
The phenomenon of advocating for someone previously opposed describes my current advocacy for Hillary. I really, really opposed Hillary here on this blog in 2008. I assume that is clear. I always liked her but just like Obama more. I still think Obama is great but Hillary has won me over.
She handled the defeat in 2008 with grace and grit. She was a team player as Secretary of State, and I was amazed at her 11 hours of Benghazi testimony. So, I am now fired up and ready to go for Hillary! (Get the Obama reference, ha, I amuse myself.)
But that process took a matter of years and is based on actual events and things that she has done. Parent
In mid-2014, Noam Scheiber tracked down 10 former Iowa precinct captains for Barack Obama and asked whom they were supporting in 2016. The answer? Overwhelmingly, they were backing Hillary Clinton -- the very candidate they had worked so hard to beat in 2008. Seven of the 10 ex-Obama organizers told him they'd become "enthusiastic" Clinton supporters, and an eighth said she was "slowly coming around." The reassessment of Hillary Clinton was driven in part by the disillusionments of the Obama years. "Watching the system not change really made an impact on these people," Scheiber told me. "I don't think they want to get burned again." In 2008, Obama promised to transform American politics. By 2014, it was clear he had failed. Even Obama admits his presidency hasn't fulfilled the hopes raised by his campaign. "A singular regret for me is the fact that our body politic has become more polarized, the language, the spirit has become meaner than when I came in," he told Politico. If Obama was surprised by his presidency's failure to change the tenor of American politics, Clinton probably wasn't. She had always been clear that Obamaism was, in her view, shot through with naiveté about the nature of both American politics and Republican opposition.
The reassessment of Hillary Clinton was driven in part by the disillusionments of the Obama years. "Watching the system not change really made an impact on these people," Scheiber told me. "I don't think they want to get burned again."
In 2008, Obama promised to transform American politics. By 2014, it was clear he had failed. Even Obama admits his presidency hasn't fulfilled the hopes raised by his campaign. "A singular regret for me is the fact that our body politic has become more polarized, the language, the spirit has become meaner than when I came in," he told Politico.
If Obama was surprised by his presidency's failure to change the tenor of American politics, Clinton probably wasn't. She had always been clear that Obamaism was, in her view, shot through with naiveté about the nature of both American politics and Republican opposition.
Many of us out here also saw the naivete, but were told by Obama supporters that "experience doesn't matter," and "Hope and Change" were going to win the day. They sound a lot like Sanders supporters who believe there is actually going to be a political revolution. Parent
Just accept the current ally without trying to revisit old debates.
Suffice it to say I disagree. There is a time and a season for all things. 2008 was Obama's time. I do not regret for a second voting for him and think he has been a good President. Parent
We were much more split over Obama/Hillary, probably leaning Obama if anything.
That being said, the "change" is not disillusionment. If anything it's because as politicians Obama and Hillary are actually pretty close on most of the issues, certainly closer than Bernie. Also, I think having gone through the 2008 primaries, even if you didn't vote for Clinton then you probably developed a kind of grudging respect for her at the very least, and many of us always liked her, we just liked Obama more.
Say what you will about Obama, but he wasn't really advocating for a radical agenda. He was advocating for working together, and bringing people together. It may have been a bit optimistic, but it's also kind of the opposite of Bernie Sander's message.
Anyway - just another point of view on why people would've made the switch.
That being said, I don't really know why you're trying so hard to make Obama's presidency seem like a failure. Not even Clinton is making that argument. The 2008 primary is over, let it go. Parent
Yes, he's been a decent president. But it wasn't because of Hope and Change - it was because he put his big boy pants on and started living in reality. Parent
He's wasn't selling the same slogans. He was selling an entirely different slogan that appeals to a very different type of person, that was kind of my point. It was the opposite of "let's pick a massive fight and radically transform everything now". It was more about compromise. Which, I dunno, sounds a lot more similar to what Hillary is saying. Parent
Interesting. I guess they didn't get the message you got.
The point was, many of us saw the political reality on 2008. It'seems nice that others are finally getting on the train. I guess we should ignore the fact that they're late to the party, and embrace the fact that they got here eventually. Parent
Btw - I certainly wouldn't assume the Bernie supporters are the same people as the Obama '08 supporters. It's 8 years later, I'm guessing a significant portion of his youth support were unable to vote at all in '08. I don't see any evidence that they are flocking to Sanders. Shoot, one huge demographic block that supported Obama seems to be firmly in Clinton's camp right now. And it's also worth mentioning that Clinton beat Obama in New Hampshire - so it's pretty clear that the lines have changed.
For that matter - just look at this blog. Most of the Bernie supporters here were ardent Hillary supporters in '08. I'm not saying there isn't any Bernie/Obama crossover support, but it certainly isn't the clear line that you are suggesting. Parent
And despite all the coverage, Bernie supporters aren't just "Young people who were too young to vote for Obama," (but keep believing the hype) - a lot of them are your age and older who were disappointed in what Obama couldn't achieve, but through magical thinking, they believe Bernie will be able to succeed where Obama couldn't. Parent
They are all over the place, that's my point, you can't just pick one group because it suits your narrative. Parent
Support whatever candidate you want. But when presented with questions like, "What are the details to this and what is your plan for achieving this?" maybe it'seems better to have a less ethereal answer than, "We'll have a political revolution." (What does that even mean in the real world? That we're suddenly going to have super majorities of liberal Democrats in both houses of Congress??) Parent
They have some minor superficial similarities, but that's it. On policy, on approach, on style, on background, on everything else they are different.
And Obama won voters 18-30 as well as 31-45. The only age demographic Bernie is currently winning is 18-29, the vast majority of whom were not eligible to vote in 2008.
Just because neither one of them appeals to you does not make their appeal the same. Parent
More still supported no one in '08 or '12. Parent
From that era I tended to Wordsworth, but he was the genius of the group.....Wordsworth was soothing if somewhat simple. Blake made my head hurt.
Nice quote--especially the lizard part. Parent
But I know from my own experience that in the process of defending someone you weren't particularly that enthused about as a candidate, you can actually find yourself becoming a convincing advocate - not just convincing others, but yourself in the process.
Also, that phenomenon played out here on TL for a brief period last year. If "brief" = a few months. Parent
I disagree that electing a corporate influence will alleviate the problem. It matters who the third party candidate is...Jill Stein or Ralph Nader yay...Bloombucks nay. Parent
Google has yielded me nothing on the subject.
I think I much more more respect for Ralph Nader than you do, and so I would be most interested in his reasoning on that score. Parent
Ralph doesn't seem to understand the electoral college. Parent
You have misrepresented it.
It is not an endorsement of Bloomberg by Ralph Nader. Parent
This article points out what annoys me about Nader. The fact is if he thinks third parties are so good then the only way for them to get any traction is to change the electoral college system and have the country go to a popular vote system. I don't see him lifting one finger to change that. Parent
I sincerely think that the right-wing scored a big victory by getting liberal democrats to despise Nader.
If I misread the intent of your comment above, I apologize. Parent
Megyn Kelly.
We're in three wars.
Trump drops out of Fox News debate.
Will Sanders launch an attack ad?
Hillary loves Bernie loves Hillary loves Martin loves Hillary and Bernie.
Anybody got any ideas?
I have spent the past two years somewhat concerned about the effects of national amnesia, largely because I believe that a problem can not be effectively treated without being effectively diagnosed.
For me, "national amnesia" is a state that is deliberately encouraged by our national leadership, so that they can keep doing to us what they have been doing to us for generations.
In recent, relatively recent, history, I think of the lessons not learned from our horrible involvement in Vietnam. Lied into war. Told of dire consequences if we were to leave. In fact, told that we were winning the war over and over again. For years and years. And that we couldn't just leave.
So, with amnesia in full swing, Bush did unto us what Johnson et al did to us decades earlier.
And now, a decade and a half later, we are being told that we are winning the war, that we can't just leave, that it is not our fight and that we must lead the fight.
And it is not a subject of much discussion.
Even here, when I mention these wars, I am usually greeted with either indifference or contempt. Like I'm Johnny One Note for focusing on an issue which has killed hundreds of thousands, maimed hundreds of thousands, has been the excuse for robbing us of our liberties, and ultimately threatens our lives.
I do not wish to criticize anyone. And I don't actually feel critical of anyone. It's just the way it is.
But I can't help but notice that I don't see much reporting from war zones. Or much if any reporting on the treatment of our returning veterans, or of any proposal that we extricate ourselves from these endless nightmares from any of the major candidates.
I haven't responded to your requests to talk about it because there are so many facets of our involvement in different locations and I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be. I don't know how many people we have in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, for example, or what exactly they are doing.
Yes wars have killed hundreds of thousands... I always believed it was a mistake to start the whole mess in Iraq, and greeted the 'Arab Spring' with more worry than joy.
Is our involvement level right now responsible for killing hundreds of thousands? Or would it save lives if we were even more involved? I believe no, and no. Does that mean we are doing the right thing? Probably not. Parent
You will laugh when you see who Jacob is. Knowing your viewing history. I did.
I am now into the final season. Omg omg omg. Parent
You need to watch London Spy. Episode 2 tonight. Parent
I am recording LS for later. Parent
At the beginning of seasons 4 and 5 there is a sort of 10 minute overview of the whole series to that point. As I said, otally not recommended. It leaves a LOT out. But does tell you enough for the next season to make sense.
Don't do it. Start from the beginning.
It an unbelievably complicated story that only gets more complicated as you go along. For example, this mythical character, Jacob, who you only hear about for years finally appears in fashbacks of how he met and interacted with each main character in their past. Most when they were children. The story is 70% flashback. Parent
And that violence is spilling over into our backyard not to put too fine a point onto it.
So.... My opinion...
Bosnia was important, on some level so are the wars being fought right now. What I truly hope can be done is that while we should always make the goal be no war, we should also consider that lives are saved by executing wars competently.
Maybe just ignore this. Suffice to say there's disagreements here so if we want discussion.... Parent
Contrast that with the days of yore when there were daily reports from the front.
Our government and our media, owned by the same conglomerates, have managed a way to keep us from experiencing what they are doing in our name.
War is as remote as a video game - If we get to see anything, it is as puffs on a screen. We don't even get to see our returning veterans. And they are kept out of sight as long as possible.
So these wars have become a permanent feature of our daily existence. We don't even notice that they are going on.
And Sanders is yakked at - how's he going to pay for programs which most civilized countries have, but we have no right to expect? Listen, we got three wars and counting. We're working on a smaller more compact nuke. And that takes money. Spend it on tuition or medical care?
You nuts? Parent
it's just i also consider the possibility that if there was more reporting about it, we might unearth some really amazing stories about US soldiers helping other people in other countries?
i hope that too, though i'm extremely naive.
and maybe nuts. Parent
... I got this wound fallin' off my La-Z-Boy. It's the Cheetos Star with a Six-Pack cluster. Parent
It is to the interest of the government to keep these atrocities out of sight.
Naturally, the media go along.
So it isn't even a topic of conversation among progressives, or anybody.
The wars just are now firmly implanted in our daily lives.
The last time the wars were an issue was in 2006. We voted in a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate, and Pelosi and Reid proceeded to sell us out and went along with Bush to send thousands of more troops to Iraq - instead of respecting the mandate that the people had given them.
So, now, it isn't an issue. Because no one is government is listening. And no one cares. Parent
It's why I try my best to avoid the news on the weekends, that is my time to not be force fed the horse race politics, even for things that shouldn't be political, like bombings and shootings.
I'll buy amnesia for a 40+ year old war, some like me weren't old enough to even develop memories/amnesia, probably more of us than people who lived through it. But not for Iraq, Afghanistan, school shootings, and the government spying/torturing/lying us into wars, etc.
Rehashing those arguments just depletes the human soul IMO. Parent
That is someone who gets people to come into the tent in order to make money for the circus.
So, it is a good thing that he will be using his talents to raise money for our veterans, rather than raising money to fill the coffers of the likes of Roger Ailes and his band of evildoers.
I was really glad to see them called out. I have some local experience with them, and I can tell you I would never give them a cent. There are plenty of more worthy veteran groups. Parent
It was a scandal under GW Bush, and it remains a scandal under Obama.
So, in this instance, I say bravo.
Once again, it is surprising to me that this issue has little or no traction in this country which sends ever increasing numbers of its young people into unending wars to be killed or maimed or suffer unbelievable psychic trauma.
And then to be forgotten in a manner similar only to the way we treat people in our prisons. Parent
Please don't be fooled; it's not that our veterans don't deserve support - and not just the emotional kind - but what Trump's doing is in the same category with flag pins, and every other symbol that's supposed to identify someone as a "real" American, or a "real" patriot. Parent
But he is not new to this issue.
I will also say every time I hear Hillary talk about this it goes to, well, yes, there are problems but the vast majority of blah blah.
Which is probably true but it, IMO, entirely misses the point. Parent
Not that it's not true, just... It makes you wonder if (and how long) they were sitting on it. Parent
Although, the two stories are probably one is the same, $$$$.
* Trump had 4 college deferments and once he became available for service: But Trump had a physical exam in September 1968. He had taken one less than two years earlier that did not disqualify him for service as we can tell from his 1-A classification in July 1968. However, his second physical was followed in October with a new classification, 1-Y. That designation put him near the bottom of any call-up list. It meant he would only be drafted if there were a national emergency. Until recently, the only detail on record about that shift was it was medically related. After his comments about McCain, Trump said it had to do with bone spurs in his heels. Trump reportedly was active in college sports, playing baseball, tennis and squash.
But Trump had a physical exam in September 1968. He had taken one less than two years earlier that did not disqualify him for service as we can tell from his 1-A classification in July 1968. However, his second physical was followed in October with a new classification, 1-Y. That designation put him near the bottom of any call-up list. It meant he would only be drafted if there were a national emergency. Until recently, the only detail on record about that shift was it was medically related. After his comments about McCain, Trump said it had to do with bone spurs in his heels. Trump reportedly was active in college sports, playing baseball, tennis and squash.
Until recently, the only detail on record about that shift was it was medically related. After his comments about McCain, Trump said it had to do with bone spurs in his heels. Trump reportedly was active in college sports, playing baseball, tennis and squash.
I would call that dodging service and if I were a wounded veteran, especially from Vietnam, I would not want to be associated with any of the men who decided someone else should take their place on the battlefield. Some did, and some got wounded, some died.
Also, how can any Veteran group associate with a guy who went after McCain for getting captured.
He's a war hero because he was captured, I like people who weren't captured.
Martin O'Malley is pissed at Bernie Sanders. With the Democrats on track to add a new debate for their presidential candidates between Iowa and New Hampshire, the long-shot candidate ripped into Sanders (who has yet to agree to this debate, while Hillary Clinton has) with an odd charge. He claimed that Sanders' public calls over the summer for additional debates had been "totally disingenuous" and that Sanders had privately worked against more face-offs being added to the lineup. "Bernie Sanders didn't want any more debates, from the beginning," O'Malley said following an event in Grinnell, Iowa, on Wednesday night. Speaking with reporters from Mother Jones and MSNBC, O'Malley seemed to fault Sanders more than Clinton for the limited number of debates on the Democratic side. The number of debates was set by the Democratic Party, and the rules it established prohibited candidates from participating in debates that were not sanctioned by the Democratic National Committee. O'Malley claims that, once these rules were announced, his campaign reached out to the Sanders camp seeking their support in pushing for more debates. But, O'Malley says, Sanders declined. "We knew as soon as those rigged rules came down, we knew that if [Sanders] would agree to do more debates, we would have more debates, but he would never agree," O'Malley said. "He didn't want more debates." O'Malley's charge, however, is a bit hard to square with Sanders' actions at the time. The Vermont senator was in fact sending letters to the DNC and posting petitions to his website rallying supporters behind more debates.
Speaking with reporters from Mother Jones and MSNBC, O'Malley seemed to fault Sanders more than Clinton for the limited number of debates on the Democratic side. The number of debates was set by the Democratic Party, and the rules it established prohibited candidates from participating in debates that were not sanctioned by the Democratic National Committee. O'Malley claims that, once these rules were announced, his campaign reached out to the Sanders camp seeking their support in pushing for more debates. But, O'Malley says, Sanders declined. "We knew as soon as those rigged rules came down, we knew that if [Sanders] would agree to do more debates, we would have more debates, but he would never agree," O'Malley said. "He didn't want more debates." O'Malley's charge, however, is a bit hard to square with Sanders' actions at the time. The Vermont senator was in fact sending letters to the DNC and posting petitions to his website rallying supporters behind more debates.
If he's saying this stuff now, could it mean that when he doesn't make the 15% threshold in precincts, he will encourage his supporters to go to HRC? Is this a signal?
Frankly I thought O'Malley did a pretty good job at the debate in Charleston. So I'm not surprised that he wants more. They can only help him. Parent
I think O'Malley got into this race as a foil/alternative to Clinton, and Sanders' entrance pretty much ate his lunch - so the question is, does he really align more to a Sanders view or a Clinton one? Much of his record in MD would suggest he might be closer to Sanders than Clinton, but not by so much that he couldn't easily throw his support to her. Which, given how hard he's dinged her in debates, may not be entirely credible.
But then, this is politics, where truth often takes a vacation.
My sense about Sanders is that this is such a critical time in the process that he doesn't want to give DWS and the DNC even the slightest reason/excuse to punish him in some way. That's not cowardice, it's politics.
There's no question in my mind that O'Malley wants to be part of a Democratic administration, so it wouldn't surprise me if he threw his support behind the person he thinks has the best chance to make that happen. But realistically, we aren't talking about a lot of voters, are we? Would it be enough to make a difference? I don't know - maybe the difference is in the optics more than the actual numbers.
My head hurts. Parent
So, I disagree that Sanders is not on board because of some fear of DNC reprisals. It seems likelier that he sees no advantage, and perhaps potential harm, to his campaign from a debate at this time.
And it totally undercuts his complaints about the dearth of debates. Parent
That being said, I think Bernie should do it anyway...the more debates the better imo. Well at least Democrat debates, those Republican ones are more like Piper's Pit than a debate...we need no more of those!
Parent
In the concluding analysis, the issue of getting things done arises, particularly some of the Sanders' proposals, like Medicare for All. Sanders is depending on the people sending a message so strong than even the Congress can't ignore it. Q. wow, do you think that could happen? A. That's the bottom line of the whole contest. Vote for Bernie: Send a message. Vote for Hillary: She knows how to make things work.
Q. I would like to elect someone who can make things work while simultaneously sending a message. A. Do you ever watch those house-hunter shows where people make the list of what they want..., a place in the heart of the city ... that's quiet, ..has green space for the dog,..and four bedrooms for guests.. for no more than $500 a month?
That doesn't do much for clicks or viewership.
Some recent state polls not from Iowa or NH.
Pennsylvania Clinton +17 South Carolina Clinton +37 North Carolina Clinton +25 Minnesota Clinton +34 Florida Clinton +36 Maryland Clinton +13 Utah Clinton +10 Parent
But FL and SC are both before the end of Feb. If he has not been campaigning there already he is not going to have much time to capitalize. Parent
And a good many of those numbers could be due to debate performances even though there's not really been any campaigning. Parent
Stephen Colbert, at CBS is different than Stephen Colbert at Comedy Central. More favorable exposure time to Sanders, but then, he seems to be working hard on capturing a younger demographic and this may be a part of that. Parent