Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Accuser's Body

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:16:54 PM EST
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Bump and Update: No DNA that matched the players was found on or within or on the surface of the accuser's body or any of her belongings or clothing. Not even under her fingernails. You can listen to the defense attorneys' news conference here. They say the findings show there is no evidence that any sexual activity occurred in that house on that night. If you re-read what she said happened, it is an impossibility. Not to mention, the defense say they have photos showing she had injuries when she arrived. Even more, the defense says they have interviewed the other dancer who said the accuser never mentioned being raped to her. The defense also has said voice analysis shows the other dancer is the person who made the first 9-11 call.

The D.A. should drop the case. But, word is he may go forward anyway. More news here and here.

"I'm not saying it's over. If that's what they expect, they will be sadly disappointed," Nifong said at a candidate forum Monday night. "They can say anything they want, but I'm still in the middle of my investigation. "I believe a sexual assault took place."

Update 4/11: DA says the case is not going away. There's more DNA testing to do. He can do DNA testing till the cows come home. If there was none in or on the accuser, none under her fingernails and none on her belongings, how will he ever prove a rape?

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Original Post: 12:16 am
Duke Lacrosse Case Sinking Faster Than the Titanic

Here's the latest in the Duke lacrosse players rape allegations.

A defense attorney says time-stamped photographs will show an exotic dancer was already injured and "very impaired" when she arrived at a party where she claims she was raped by members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team.

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said. "This young lady was substantially impaired. She had fallen several times during the course of the evening," Thomas said.

Thomas said the photos contradict the alleged victim's assertion she was scared, as they show her standing at the door of the off-campus house with "a major grin on her face" as she tried to get back inside."People inside the house have stated she was banging on the door, attempting to regain entry," Thomas said.

The second dancer has been interviewed by the defense and said the accuser never mentioned being raped.

"All of these statements you've heard ... about this brutal assault, rape, kidnapping and robbery which occurred, I believe that the public will soon be able to learn the truth, and that these allegations are totally false and without merit," Thomas said.

Joe Cheshire, another attorney for the players had this to say Sunday:

Joseph Cheshire V, a lawyer for one of the players, told The News and Observer of Raleigh Sunday that time-stamped photos have a 27-minute gap between when the two women stopped dancing and when the accuser was photographed outside the house. During that period, the dancers locked themselves in a bathroom and then went outside, he said.

"These photographs not only help to set the scene, a scene different than what has been described, but also create an appropriate timeline," he said. The first sequence of photographs, taken over three and a half minutes, shows two women dancing in negligees in the living room of the Durham off-campus house rented by the team's three captains.

In the first, the accuser is lying on the floor, he said. The other woman is on her feet. The lacrosse players line the room, drinking out of beer cans and plastic cups. The dance lasted fewer than four minutes, Cheshire said, when the second dancer stopped the performance after an offensive remark from a player. During this time, Cheshire told the newspaper, the women locked themselves in a bathroom while one of the captains tried to persuade them to continue the show. Some players accused the women of pocketing the $800 fee and not performing. The dancers then left the house, he said.

Cheshire said the next photographs show the dancer on the back porch, fumbling through her purse. One shows her smiling at the photographer. She is still in her negligee, which does not appear torn or damaged, Cheshire said.

The next photo, six minutes later, shows her passed out on her side on the back porch, he said. Cheshire said the final photograph, taken three minutes later, shows a team captain helping the accuser into the other dancer's car.

As to the offensive e-mail, the lawyers said earlier it's non-incriminating meaning is backed up by e-mails from others during the same time period.

The players' attorneys also have raised other questions about the allegations, saying e-mails written in the hours after the alleged attack will help prove the players' claims that nothing happened that night.

The defense lawyers are convinced the DNA will come back clearing all the players.

Bottom line in my opinion: The accuser got to the party at 11:30 pm. The evidence of sexual activity which the rape exam nurse found to be merely "consistent with" forcible sex, likely happened before she arrived, as did her physical injuries. There was a dispute (and possibly) a scuffle over the money - the players felt ripped off that the girls stopped dancing after just a few minutes and that one of them (the accuser) was too drunk to dance.

If the accuser made up the rape claim, the damage she caused to these young players, to the lacrosse team which had its season cancelled, to Duke University and its reputation and to the team's coach is incalculable. And, it will be a huge stab in the back to true rape victims everywhere, who already fear they won't be believed if they come forward.

This is a continuation of earlier posts, and a new thread for comments on the case.

April 7, 2006 - Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis
April 6, 2006 - Duke Responds to Lacrosse Team Crisis
April 5, 2006 - Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns; Post-Party E-mail Revealed
April 2, 2006 - Newsweek on the Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allegations
March 31, 2006 - The Duke Lacrosse Players Rape Allegations: Truth or Scam?

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Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Accuser's Body | 100 comments (100 topical)

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#1)
by Linkmeister on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 10:24:40 PM EST

It will also be a wedge between "town and gown," which I gather has been a problem between Duke and Durham already.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#2)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 09, 2006 at 11:53:48 PM EST

Fair questions do remain. The lacrosse players claim that the women, after their dance, locked themselves in the bathroom. The accuser has it that she and the other dancer went out to the car, but were coaxed back in, at which point they got separated. Obviously the second dancer is now a critical witness, no? It will be interesting to see whether she will confirm or refute the Duke students' lawyers' accounts. Talkleft wrote: "The accuser got to the party at 11:30 pm." Between 11:30 and 12:45 - 1:00 (when the neighbor saw the car leave) is 75 - 90 minutes. If our alleged victim arrived at 11:30, finished dancing by 11:50, stayed in the bathroom with her friend until 12:20, went to the car at 12:20 to 12:30 (as Bissey, the neighbor reports it), went back in for her shoe, (at which time she was raped), I don't yet find a conflict with the photographic evidence, other than the fact that the still of the team captain helping the accuser into her car would actually be a still of the team captain convincing her to come back into the house. It would be interesting to see whether the picture of her smiling and fumbling with her purse shows her fingernails intact. Also interesting is the question of what became of her purse. It was apparently an object to be sought after in the original search warrant, but was not actually found.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#3)
by chew2 on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:00:56 AM EST

Something bad happened at that party. 1. Why did the other dancer feel she had to call in the first 911 call. She was disturbed about something. My guess is that the victim didn't tell her she'd been rape, but that something bad had happened. 2. Why did the team split right after the dancers left. Guilty knowledge. 3. The victim didn't call in a rape charge. She was drunk or in shock, and told the police who came that she'd been raped. 4. What would motivate her to file a false rape charge knowing she had 30 witnesses against her? They stole her money? Why didn't they steal the other dancers money. Not serious enough a reason. 5. It appears she delayed wanting to file charges for a day or two. She says that what gave her the courage to file was seeing her dad and thinking how he would feel if she let them get away with it. This jibes with her dad saying when he first visited her in the hospital she didn't tell him about the rape. This also jibes with the delay in seeking a search warrant. She must have told the police initially that she'd been raped otherwise they wouldn't have done the rape kit. So in the cold light of day, she decided to go forward knowing she had 30 witnesses against her. If she had made it up, she could have told the police to forget about it and she wasn't going to press charges, and she wouldn't have had to tell her dad. Why? To get her money back? Not enough reason to fabricate. 5. A photo of her smiling isn't inconsistent with her being persusaded to go back to the party. 6. The injuries to her legs and cuts hurts her case. But she never claimed that her legs were injured by the attack. She says she was choked. If they found choke marks, it wasn't because eh was a happy camper. 7. Prior sexual activity hurts her case. I don't know enough to say how close in time it would have to be to explain the vaginal and anal bruising. So I still think its likely she was raped, but these guys may get away with it because they will stonewall it based on their tribal solidarity.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#4)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 01:56:35 AM EST

The dancer and the neighbor have the dancers come out of the house twice. The lacrosse team lawyers only have one trip out to the car. The dancer's story, on that ground alone, correlates better with Bissey's story than does the lacrosse team's story. Why are the defense lawyers giving us an edited version of events? Why aren't they showing off the actual times stamped on the photos? The Titanic took but a few hours to sink. The reason this story has drawn out for weeks is because the Duke students and their lawyers are actively obstructing justice.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#5)
by cpinva on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:47:04 AM EST

Jesurgislac, you're full of it, as usual. you cite statistics, with no basis in fact. please provide links to empirical data supporting your claim that 90% of rapists get away with it. you can't because there is no such data. was this young lady raped by duke lacrosse players? beats me. since no charges have actually been filed so far, my guess is there isn't enough evidence to sustain that allegation, idiotic statements made by equally idiotic prosecutors notwithstanding. or should i say, grandstanding? chew2, what drugs are you on, and where can i get some? 1. who knows what happened, to cause them to call 911? you don't, nor does anyone else at this juncture. you speculate lacking any material facts. 2. the partygoers probably split right after the dancers left because..........the party was over at that point. surprisingly, that's what happens at the end of most parties. 3. again, you speculate lacking material facts. 4. who knows what motivates people to file false charges? stupidity, anger, ego, all of the above? i doubt that most people who do actually consider the consequences, or that there might be "30 witnesses against her." since only 3 were accused, and most of the rest weren't in a position to see anything, they aren't in a position to testify against her anyway. 5. so what? since the photo was taken before the alleged rape, this is totally irrelevant anyway. 6. the bruises to her legs are irrelevant. so far, i've yet to read, see or hear about choke marks being noted on her neck, during the physical exam. of course, since that didn't occur right away, it's conceivable they might have faded by that time. 7. prior sexual activity has no effect on her case whatever. it doesn't, by itself, preclude rape. you conveniently leave out the fact that genital bruising can be caused by consensual, as well as forcible sex. inconvenient, but true.

So I still think its likely she was raped, but these guys may get away with it because they will stonewall it based on their tribal solidarity.

based on what, exactly? your personal prejudice against rich white boys who go to duke and play lacrosse? i guess those guys are so smart, they figured they'd outwit the police, forensic examiners, and the prosecutor by allowing a contemporaenous search of the house, and volunteering dna samples. boy, those duke guys are a sneaky bunch! i have no idea if this woman was raped or not, i kind of prefer to let the facts speak for themselves. if she was, the perpetrators should be hung from the nearest yardarm. if not, and she knowingly filed a false complaint, she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#6)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:39:18 AM EST

Posted by Jesurgislac April 10, 2006 02:28 AM

A defense attorney says time-stamped photographs will show an exotic dancer was already injured and "very impaired" when she arrived at a party where she claims she was raped by members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team. Sadly, it looks as if the guys who raped her at the party will get away with it - just like 90% of rapists always do, especially white men raping black women, especially when the woman can be claimed to be a loose woman.

Ya know, it occurs to me, whatever your name is, if you really care about advancing the cause of not only these particular women, but the cause of women in general, you should probably get off their side. Clearly, as you've demonstrated from day one, you have no interest whatsoever in letting the particular facts of this - or any other - case interfere with trumpeting your preconceived agenda. By all means, don't let the fact that you don't have a freakin' clue more than anyone else on the Planet who is responsible for what prevent you from laying blame at the feet of 90 percent of White Men for Rape. Never let the facts of the case get in the way of a good statistical rant. I always wondered what Jim would look like in a skirt. Thanks for clearin' that up.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#7)
by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:55:49 AM EST

Sounds more and more like my Vegas incident. I am glad both sides of the story are coming out. How long before the right blames pornography and demands a ban on stripping? Then again, it would directly effect those on the right also...

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#8)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:02:42 AM EST

It's quite simple, they will compare the photos from the rape exam to those of the students. If the injuries match then she has some serious explaining to do. Under our laws, the students are innocent until proven guilty. Lets face it, she's not the most credible person. She's an unwed mother, who's a stripper, and she has a record of violence. If the pics refute her claims, and if the DNA evidence doesn't show any matches, and considering the fact that there aren't any other witnesses, her case is going to fall apart. It always amazes me how people want to believe something so extreme without any facts. It's kinda like a tear-down-the-establishment mindset.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#9)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:06:09 AM EST

Posted by Linkmeister April 9, 2006 11:24 PM

Gee, imagine that. That's gotta be the only College Town in the Country where there's conflict between College Kids and "Townies". Why don't we have a story on when that doesn't happen? That would be a story.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#10)
by kdog on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:28:41 AM EST

The young men are still innocent...until proven guilty. We need to do our best to ignore all the sideshow aspects...rich white men, poor black woman, the sex business, student collegiate athletics, etc...and look at only the facts of the case. It seems many are wishing and hoping these young men did it to prove some kind of sociological point. These are real lives at stake...it ain't a game.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#11)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:27:54 AM EST

This case is falling apart for the accuser. It seems to me though that she had to set up these guys too....I mean the fingernails, and things in the bathroom, tells me another story.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#12)
by Bob on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:56:16 AM EST

In my experience, it is the party (defendant or prosecution) who attempts to try their case in the press prematurely is the party that is most likely to loose.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#13)
by Dadler on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 08:30:27 AM EST

Everyone here seems to be clairvoyant, from Jeralyn on down. The presumption of innocence is also not a presumption of fraud on the part of the accuser. But that is how our system sets it up in rape cases. And there's as much a sociological point to be "proven" in wishing these elite college kids get off as there is in hoping they get busted. Let it play out, the college guys have plenty of money and status behind them, the accuser has the prosecution. The game will be played and someone will prevail. The game, the game, the game.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#14)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 08:50:46 AM EST

Help on timeline please? Above, the timeline for the dancers starts at 11:30pm, however, the neighbor gives a different account as to when the women first enter the house: The News-Observer says this: 11:30 p.m.: Bissey, after being out for a while, returns to his apartment . Several young men are gathered near the back door of 610 Buchanan. 11:50 p.m.: Bissey, on his porch, notices two women walk to the back of the house, where a man greets them. Midnight: Bissey sees the two women go into the house.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#15)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:05:37 AM EST

Were you under the impression that it was OK for drunken athletes to hire young black women in negligees to dance for them? Or that it was OK for the athletes to leave the passed-out women outside without calling 911 for assistance? These young men do not treat women well and -- if they did not rape the women, which still needs to be proved -- they certainly need restraint and instruction in their role in their community.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#16)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:25:46 AM EST

Hey this is only anecdoctal but I know a female duke student who told me several months ago that she was sexually molested (raped) by a player on the duke lacrosse team and never went to the cops. Believe it ot not. After reading your post I get it why she didn't want to take on this team. Crucifying girls who dance and strip for a living had to be expected. I am sad to see you fall for it. Reporting a rape sucks, the physical investigation and public attention sucks bigtime--there is never anything in it for the woman (except maybe justice) Check out the smoking gun for charging papers--sounds plausible.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#17)
by chew2 on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:41:13 AM EST

The timeline is uncertain. The dancers were supposedly scheduled for 11:30 pm. and the search warrant may state that she arrived "around" 11:30. It's certainly possible that they showed up later. Bissey certainly could be off on the exact times. Was he looking at his watch all the time. The alleged victim said she danced for 20 minutes, left, returned, and was raped for approximately 30 minutes. So she claims she was there for roughly 50 minutes. This seems to jibe with the elapsed times Bissey is reported to claim. The defense hasn't claimed how long she was there. Just that she danced for three minutes.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#18)
by peacrevol on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:49:31 AM EST

A defense attorney says time-stamped photographs will show an exotic dancer was already injured and "very impaired" when she arrived at a party

I wonder if she was so "impaired" if she didnt get raped at a previous engagement and confuse the two incidences later. Not necessarily my personal hypothesis, but definately worth a little bit of investigation. And...Part of me would like to find out that she was lying b/c of the psychological affects of rape. But at the same time, part of me hopes she's not lying b/c of the damage that it could do to future girls who are raped and are too scared to tell anyone about it. I have heard several times that many rapes go unreported b/c the victim doesnt think people will believe her/him. In my opinion, she probably was raped but I wonder if it was at the Duke party. I dont think she is lying but she may be slightly confused due to her intoxication. All that being said, I think kdog is right - "We need to do our best to ignore all the sideshow aspects...and look at only the facts of the case."

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#19)
by Lora on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:49:34 AM EST

Well time will tell. But I ask you, lawyers and others, how on earth can a photograph "show" impairment? I don't buy it. It can show someone lying down, or slumped over, but "Passed out...?" I don't think so. The person in the photograph might be simply bending over or closing her eyes. I don't see how you can look at anyone in a photograph and say, "Yup. She's impaired." She might look it but that's hardly proof. It's possible that the defense is being so aggressive about its supposed proof in order to scare her off. What they're coming out with is hardly solid evidence. They have no pictures of what was found in the exam for alleged rape. They only show one dancer, not two, on the back porch, and getting back in the car. The pictures only are snapshots; they cannot show why the dancer looked the way she did. The defense admits to "offensive remarks" as the cause of the dance being stopped; NOT impairment of the dancer. I say the defense so far is full of holes.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#20)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:03:47 AM EST

Posted by chew2 April 10, 2006 01:00 AM

Something bad happened at that party.

Gee, are ya sure ya wanna go out on a limb like that?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#21)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:18:29 AM EST

I'm in the due process sector of the left wing, not the feminist sector, so innocent until proven guilty, fair trial, etc. But: any arguments about the accuser's character apply equally to the defendants. She was an unwed mother, stripper, brushes with the law; they are part of a truly noxious campus subculture. Their background makes them at least as likely to be rapists as hers makes her likely to file false rape charges (though this Slate article argues that the subculture is more of a lacrosse thing than a Duke or southern thing).

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#22)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 10:59:45 AM EST

According to the pics, her knee/leg/foor injuries had occured before she arrived. Also, minutes before the (allegedly post-rape) 911 call, she was photographed looking in her purse, smiling, neatly dressed, with her clothes undamaged. The three guys freely and with complete certainty gave DNA samples and then volunteered to undergo lie detector tests. So it sounds very likely she was not raped at the Duke party. So, if she wasn't, what would be her motive to lie? Maybe she didn't get all the money she thought she deserved (or, by her claims, some of her money was stolen), and she thought could claim rape, sue, get some revenge for the theft and verbal mistreatment, and maybe also back-up the Brinks truck? Maybe she thought she could "save face," somehow, by claiming she was raped? It sounds like she's pretty close to her dad, perhaps she felt that if he thought she was raped she would get sympathy from him, in contrast to his response if he found out she was stripping/hooking? Perhaps some combo of all of these things? Having said all that, regarding the time-stamp photos, none of the cameras in my house show the correct year, never mind the correct hours and minutes...

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#23)
by Lindsay Beyerstein on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:03:30 AM EST

I'm skeptical about how much they can tell from the photographs. How hard is it to alter the time stamps on a regular digital camera? I'm assuming that whoever took the pictures used a regular digital camera without Original Decision Data. How drunk do they say the accuser looked in the pictures? I doubt anyone can really tell how impaired she was unless she was unconscious or completely unable to stand.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#24)
by chew2 on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:23:19 AM EST

"The three guys freely and with complete certainty gave DNA samples and then volunteered to undergo lie detector tests. So it sounds very likely she was not raped at the Duke party" That doesn't follow. Those three were not the one's alleged to have committed the rape. None of the other 30 or 40 men who were there have cooperated or told what happened. If a rape had occurred in the bathroom, its certainly possible that those three who gave statements genuninely believed that no rape had happened, because they weren't aware of what was going on. It's certainly possible that she made up this rape story. But as my comments have indicated, I have a hard time understanding her motive and motivation if she did. They stole her money? Why not just say they beat her up and took her money. I don't know whether she was drunk or impaired that night, but I assume blood tests were taken and we will know for sure. But she was definitely sober a day or two later when she decided to pursue this case. She knew it would be her word against 30 or 40 others. Of course one can ask the reverse question? What would be the motivation of the team members to lie and claim no rape had occurred? Is that just as hard to answer?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#25)
by chew2 on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:35:59 AM EST

That Slate article linked above in kth's post discussing the violent Lacrosse subculture, mentions a poster on Ryan McFadyen's wall that supposedly celebrates the "shocker", a sexual move whereby the man sticks his fingers simultaneously up the woman's vagina and anus. McFadyen was the team member whose later email spoke of killing a stripper. Could this "move" explain the bruising of the alleged victim's vagina and anus.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#26)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:37:02 AM EST

chew2,

Those three were not the one's alleged to have committed the rape.

Apparently you've been following this alot closer than I have, what are the names of the "three," and what are the names of the guys alleged to have raped her? Understand, though, that my comment that it doesn't look like she was raped at the Duke party was based on all of the three preceding paragraphs (and other aspects as well), and not just the one you quoted. And, if the LAX team is lying, no, there is no big mystery as to why.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#27)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:29:09 PM EST

chew2 , I think so. In the absence of DNA evidence, "The Shocker" poster collected as evidence could come into play. From the search warrant:

Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed that the vicitm had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#28)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:35:30 PM EST

Are we suggesting that, if she was raped at the Duke pary, McFadyen did it?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#29)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:54:15 PM EST

The woman says "Adam" and "Matt" dragged her into the bathroom. She names "Bret" as her third attacker. She said the man named "Adam" was called "Dan" by the other players. Dan Flannery, a resident of 610 N. Buchanan, admitted to police he used an alias to hire the dancers. Matt Zash also lives at the house. The TV pundits keep saying (assuming?) she could not ID her attackers. Here is what her father said: Father says accuser ID'd lacrosse players as attackers from photos

In an interview with MSNBC's Rita Cosby aired Monday night, the accuser's father said his daughter had positively identified her three attackers as members of the lacrosse team.

Father: "And she ID'd them through the mug shot." Cosby: "Was she able to ID all three?" Father: "Yes." Cosby: "Positively?" Father: "Yes." Cosby: "No doubt in her mind it was those three?" Father: "No, no doubt in her mind, she says those were the three that did it." Cosby: "Were all three members of the lacrosse team?" Father: "Yes, I think they were."

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#30)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 12:58:27 PM EST

suo posted

I'm not. I'm suggesting at least one of the people there was a fan of a sexual manuver that could have caused some of her injuries without leaving DNA evidence behind.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#31)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 01:30:49 PM EST

Spydeman commented:

Lets face it, she's not the most credible person. She's an unwed mother, who's a stripper, and she has a record of violence.

Not that being an unwed mother actually does go to one's credibility, but where did you hear that? I read she is a divorced mother of two young children, a NCCU sophomore, and former Navy enlistee. Did you just assume she had her two children w/o benefit of wedlock?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#32)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 01:34:21 PM EST

Fair enough, imho.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#33)
by glanton on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 01:59:43 PM EST

Something to think about

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#34)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:29:18 PM EST

DNA testing complete in Duke lacrosse case

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#35)
by Dadler on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:38:57 PM EST

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to trust TL's take, that the case seems to be fading. She knows the game, she's the expert. And her job is to read the evidence. Not opine about non-evidentiary things in a prosecutorial manner. I may have a different take here, but I think Jeralyn's will be proven out. Now, that said, I must say add volunteering a DNA sample is nothing but volunteering a DNA sample. A match will prove nothing but sexual contact which will then be claimed as consensual, or as not remembered due to intoxication, or as something non-criminal. I don't think the players COULD'VE refused, even if they were guilty as hell. It would've put shined a very harsh light on them and potentially hindered their defense in the future.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#36)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:57:41 PM EST

NO DNA MATCH

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#37)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 02:59:29 PM EST

Two of the boys' DNA found on a towel and on the floor.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#38)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:05:28 PM EST

imho, could you link us please?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#39)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:12:13 PM EST

Attorney at press conference:

No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining woman - not present within her body, not present on the surface of her body, and not present on any of her belongings - not present on any of the articles or materials she had with her including her clothing. No DNA from any young man tested was found anywhere on or about the body of this woman.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#40)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:14:10 PM EST

SUO< I had to run out just before the press conference, so I taped Fox News. I am transcibing from video tape.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#41)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:20:36 PM EST

Thanks imho. I guess that settles that.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#42)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:21:47 PM EST

Cheshire:

There is no DNA evidence that shows any of these boys were touched by her fingernails.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#43)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:29:28 PM EST

Attorney: No DNA found on victim

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#44)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 03:46:55 PM EST

REPORTER: There was no DNA taken from any of the materials in the bathroom - the towels, the rugs, the paper towels? CHESHIRE: There was, and I will say this to you all, there was DNA found of two of the boys on a towel and on the floor, but you need to remember that none of that matches up with her in any way, shape or form and that the bathroom where this DNA was found happened to be the bathroom of the two boys that the DNA was found.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#45)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:33:13 PM EST

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There is none of her DNA any where present where she alleges this rape occurred - in a bathroom.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#46)
by ltgesq on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 04:59:44 PM EST

I have seen escorts pull this on several occasions. They show up, imply that if the person pays more they will have sex. Once the sucker comes accross with the money, the women will claim they feel too nervous and will attempt to leave with the money. When the Johns object and stop them from leaving with their money, the women call the cops and accuse the john of criminal confinement, rape, or a litany of crimes. In urban areas, cops have become wise to the scam.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#47)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:34:02 PM EST

Attorneys: No DNA matches in Duke lacrosse scandal

"They swabbed about every place they could possibly swab from her, in which there could be any DNA," he said. Cheshire said even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently.

Well, I hope that everyone who called her a whore is ready to apologize.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#48)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:54:05 PM EST

wral.com video Lacrosse Team Defense Attorney News Conference

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#49)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:33:40 PM EST

That is a joke, right?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#50)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:34:24 PM EST

Well, I hope that everyone who called her a whore is ready to apologize. Not to mention calling her a serial liar and , no wait that part is certainly true. Wonder if we will see an apology to the Lacrosse team for all the sick things they have been called. Oh right, they are whilte males so it doesn't matter.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#51)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 06:40:20 PM EST

sarcastic unnamed one asked:

Yes.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#52)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:42:26 PM EST

This is a little personal speculation on my part: If a rape occured at the party as the stripper/escort claimed, I find it very difficult to believe that none of the 40+ students at the party would come forward. If I was at a party and saw 3 of my teammates drag the stripper into the bathroom and they locked the door for 30 minutes. Then the next day there are claims of rape. You bet I'd talk. I'm just one individual. How difficult would it be to keep all 40+ quiet? A good example is the nasty email that was leaked. Where are the comments/emails saying "That wasn't cool what AJ/BJ/DJ did last night. But hey, we gotta keep quiet about what happened?" They don't exist. I'm sorry, but no one can control 40+ individuals in that manner. If something happened someone would speak. If someone tried to keep me from speaking that would be even more damning. If the fake nails came off during the alleged assault, why isn't there any matching DNA evidence under the nails??? I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. If you resisted a brutal sexual assault for 30 minutes, there would at least be DNA under the finger nails. The utter lack of evidence is damaging for this case. The fact that no other students have come forward is even more damaging.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#53)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 07:58:54 PM EST

gmax posted:

Wonder if we will see an apology to the Lacrosse team for all the sick things they have been called. Oh right, they are whilte males so it doesn't matter.

If I might hop on that soap box for which Squeaky has reminded me I should be grateful - While the "broom joke" and racial taunts did sicken me, I don't think I've called any of the players anything. I've saved my distain for their attorneys. Though I am not impressed with the evidentiary value of the photos being touted by the defense attorneys, all of the photos taken that night should have been turned over immediately. Call me naive, but had all of the players given statements to the DA from the outset I believe they would be in a better position today. They may have salvaged their lacrosse season and not hung their coach out to dry. They should have cut their losses. Some of them would have been revealed to be the jerks they are for their sexist and racist remarks, but they all would not have been painted with a broad brush. Let the individual a**holes take the heat for what they did. Apologize. Be genuinely contrite. People are willing to forgive just about anything, it's the cover-up or ass-covering that people can not stomach. The day after the party they should have gathered up the woman's stuff, returned the $400.00 to her purse, and called the escort agency. They should have told them she showed up pretty wasted and performed unsatisfactorily, but since some of the party guests were rude to her and behaved poorly they just want her to keep the money. By then, she had already made the claim of rape, but that may have given her pause to continue down that path - assuming no assault had taken place. If it turns out the woman is lying and the players have been wronged, you'll have to please excuse me for blaming the victims. Things might have turned out differently for them had they shown some character in the aftermath of the party. You can see why I am not a defense attorney, all of my guilty clients would end up in jail. Yeah, yeah, I know some of you are thinking, "So would that dolt's innocent clients." Call me naive, but I don't think so.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#54)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 08:36:20 PM EST

Call me naive, but had all of the players given statements to the DA from the outset I believe they would be in a better position today.

Wrong... They did the right thing by keeping their mouths shut and letting their attorneys do the talking.

People are willing to forgive just about anything, it's the cover-up or ass-covering that people can not stomach.

Except when it comes to sexual assaults. In case you haven't noticed, even an allegation of a sex offense is damaging.

You can see why I am not a defense attorney

Yes, that's not too difficult to infer.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#55)
by inmyhumbleopinion on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 09:19:58 PM EST

macromaniac wrote:

That is still to be determined. macromaniac wrote:

Yes, sexual assault is one of the exceptions, that's why I used the qualifier "just about." I believe the damage did not come from the allegations, but from the players' attorneys' response to the allegations. I wrote:

You can see why I am not a defense attorney.

macromaniac graciously replied:

Thank you, macromaniac.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#56)
by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 11:22:29 PM EST

Macromaniac wrote: "They did the right thing by keeping their mouths shut and letting their attorneys do the talking." There's a difference between thinking strategically and thinking morally. Morally keeping ones mouth shut and keeping evidence from the police has no obvious value I can come up with that outweighs the value of participating in a police investigation when a crime has been alleged, true or false. Strategically, letting one's lawyer do the talking for one might well be an improvement over what you would come up with yourself. Ask Ryan Mcfadyen... Spyderman wrote: "If a rape occured at the party as the stripper/escort claimed, I find it very difficult to believe that none of the 40+ students at the party would come forward." Do you feel the same way about a robbery? The dancer's purse hasn't been recovered yet, as far as I know, but her cell phone, which according to one attorney can be seen in her purse in one of the photos the attorneys are shielding from the police, appears to have been located during the execution of the first search warrant. 40+ students HAVE failed to come forward to explain this.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#57)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:00:24 AM EST

Talkleft writes: "The D.A. should drop the case. But, word is he may go forward anyway." I think it would be irresponsible for the D.A. to drop this case on the basis of hearsay evidence and arguments leaked to him through the press by the accused persons' lawyers. The reason we have trials in our society is so that people's complaints can be adjudicated fairly. The mantra "everyone deserves a lawyer" is only a second order mantra. "Everyone deserves a fair trial" is a first order mantra. Maybe in the end we'll discover that this was a story about what you get when you take the law into your own hands. That's argument enough for why a jury, and not the D.A., should be the entity that decides the outcome. Some might argue against spending public money on cases that can't be won. But real men and women don't win cases. They try them. Unless the dancers themselves back off, I think this case deserves a try.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#58)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:25:06 AM EST

PB: SA's aren't supposed to bring charges unless they have a good faith belief that they can win at trial by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense attorney's description of the DNA tests is not hearsay, it is a report submitted to them by the DA. Their photographs are not hearsay. The player who took the picture will testify in court as to the date and time they took it. It is direct evidence.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#59)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:31:44 AM EST

PB, since we're talkin about feelings and not facts... I wasn't aware the purse was never recovered. I am aware that some of the cash, like $160, was recovered. I think you'll agree that there's a huge difference between witnessing a sexual assault and the supposed 'theft' of a purse. Two factors at play here. First, there was probably a dispute over the money due to the length of the entertainment. So, is it a theft or a customer's attempt at getting a refund? Considering the sick email that was leaked, it seems as if there might have been some lingering resentment/hostility about the transaction. Second, if the students are being falsely accused of sexual assault, because they took a refund, they may not feel a responsibility to come forward about the money/purse. In the minds of the students, they have now become victims of false sexual assault allegations, which has put their entire future at risk. An overzealous prosecutor, looking to save face, certainly might try to implicate that person. Again, this is just speculation.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#60)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:51:10 AM EST

Hi TL, You wrote, "PB: SA's aren't supposed to bring charges unless they have a good faith belief that they can win at trial by proof beyond a reasonable doubt." I'm a probablist. If the SA has a one in a million chance of winning, does that meet your standard? You wrote: "Their photographs are not hearsay. The player who took the picture will testify in court as to the date and time they took it. It is direct evidence." I thought you were recommending it not be brought to court. You are basing that recommendation on hearsay... the descriptions and interpretations that lawyers have given of the photos. You wrote: "I wasn't aware the purse was never recovered. I am aware that some of the cash, like $160, was recovered." I don't think we even know that the $160 that were recovered were a portion of the $400 that were declared missing. You wrote: "I think you'll agree that there's a huge difference between witnessing a sexual assault and the supposed 'theft' of a purse." Was it George Bernard Shaw who said "Now we're just haggling over price."

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#61)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:14:25 AM EST

Hey PB, try to keep things in context. You are effectively lying when you take things outa context as you did above. BTW, here's the reason this DNA report is so significant: "No lacrosse players' DNA was found beneath her fingernails, the defense lawyers said -- though the application for a court order to obtain the players' DNA samples said the victim "was clawing at one of the suspect's arms in an attempt to breathe while being strangled."" The alleged victim's mother said she doubted the SBI test results' credibility. "I don't have a reaction because I know it happened," the woman's mother said Monday night at her home. "They must have tampered with [the results] or something." Oh, this is just starting to get fun. I can't wait for the big civil suits against Duke and the players. Someone's going for the big pay day.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#62)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:39:02 AM EST

Hi Spyderman, You wrote: "Hey PB, try to keep things in context. You are effectively lying when you take things outa context as you did above." I have no idea what you are referring to here. I've posted a number of times on this thread. What is it that I am "effectively lying" about? What does "above" refer to?

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#63)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:33:41 AM EST

A few random thoughts after reading through this post: "Bonfire of the vanities." "Great White Defendant." "Law and Order" As an aside, I found this strangely funny: http://www.gambling911.com/040706Cnews.html "According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County. Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report. Additional information notes that her blood-alcohol level registered at more than twice the legal limit." Of course, it would be unfair of us to prejudge her based on incidents such as this one. And lacrosse players are indeed preppy jerks.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#64)
by HK on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:21:49 AM EST

Still waiting to see which way this one is going to go, but the case against these guys is looking shaky. One thing this does bring to light is the issue of anonymity. I am not entirely sure what the laws are regarding this in the US, but in the UK, the accuser gets anonymity but the accused doesn't. This stikes me as vastly unfair. While this can be reversed for the accuser if it becomes clear they have falsified claims (a judge in a recent case released the name of an accuser for this reason) a man who is accused cannot regain his anonymity if he is cleared of all involvement. He has still had a slur against his character and a trial by media, even if ultimately he is proven innocent in the courts. IMO, this needs to be addressed.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#65)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:23:13 AM EST

I believe the damage did not come from the allegations, but from the players' attorneys' response to the allegations.

Interesting... The damage was a direct result of the allegations, not the lack of response from the accused. They do, after all, have the right to remain silent... End of discussion.

There's a difference between thinking strategically and thinking morally.

Brilliant observation, however, if you were facing sexual assault allegations, I would tell you to shut your mouth and let your attorney do the talking. If you want to contemplate the finer points of morality vs. strategy, go right ahead. However, if you believe that every prosecutor and every police officer has only the highest moral principles, you are sadly mistaken.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#66)
by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:03:03 AM EST

If I were a victims rights advocate, I would be plenty pissed at this woman right now. It is depressing to see Jeru still claim to be certain there was a rape. This situation sounds very similar to the one I experienced in Vegas which cost us an additional $500 to get them to leave. Thank goodness the $500 was paid, I cannot imagine having to go through what these players and the university is going through. What is most ironic to me is that on the one side you have people screaming "spoiled rich white guys with booze" "of course they did it". Drunken frat guys, athletes etc -- and they feel comfortable lumping all athletes and frat guys together. Yet if you say, "darned strippers, they are all alike" the response is "she is a mother of 2 kids and a college student". No one wins here, but certainly those 40 young men will wear a scarlet letter for many years irrespective of what follows, including the dropping of all charges. I am writing my congressman for the 5th time to have the media STOP identifying alleged suspects in any felony until after the criminal proceedings have concluded......

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#67)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:06:36 AM EST

Macromaniac wrote: "However, if you believe that every prosecutor and every police officer has only the highest moral principles, you are sadly mistaken." I don't think "every" prosecutor is relevant. Have you got a problem with this prosecutor? Has he shown himself to be "overzealous?" What would you have done differently? "The damage was a direct result of the allegations, not the lack of response from the accused." The question being addressed is not whether they have a right to remain silent, but whether exercising that right benefitted them more or less than exercising their duty to report what they know. Perhaps I have a naive take on how rotten these Duke students are, but I believe their reputations have been tarnished far more by this wall of silence technique than they would have been had they risked acting like standard everyday good citizens.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#68)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:35:25 AM EST

Posted by Jesurgislac April 11, 2006 01:55 AM

No DNA that matched the players was found on or within or on the surface of the accuser's body or any of her belongings or clothing. Not even under her fingernails. Given that mitochondrial DNA (from hair samples) and epithelial DNA (from shed skin cells on clothing, for example) takes significantly longer to process that sperm sample DNA (up to three weeks), whereas a sperm sample (if the rapist didn't use a condom) can be processed in 48 hours, the defense attorneys are presumably trying to take pressure off their clients by (a) hoping that people will forget that not all the DNA samples can possibly have been processed yet, and (b) hoping that most people will confuse "have not yet found linking DNA proof" with "so no one raped the victim and she must have been lying". We know from medical evidence that she was raped. There were 45 men at the party who might have done it: it may be impossible to trace the three who did it when the 43 witnesses to the crime shut up and if there really is no DNA evidence to prove which three men raped her. If the 43 witnesses realize that by refusing to testify to what they saw they have succeeded in bringing each one of themselves under the clear suspicion of being guilty of rape, it's just possible that public shame may bring one or more of them forward to break the silence. I hope so.

I was wondering what you'd have to offer today given this turn of events. I thought ya might go the "absence of evidence is proof of guilt" route. It worked so well for falwell and robertson during whitewater. Please, get some help before somebody gets the net.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#69)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:52:34 AM EST

Court records showed larger team problem The (Raleigh) News & Observer RALEIGH - The warning signs of a Duke University lacrosse team skidding toward disaster are scattered through the courthouse records of Durham and Orange counties - and have been for at least the past seven years. Speeding down I-40 while drunk. Urinating in public. Using an adult's ID to buy a case of beer while underage. Kicking in the slats of a fence after an argument with a girlfriend. Since 1999, records show, 41 Blue Devil lacrosse players -about 31 percent of all players on the roster from then until now -have been charged with a variety of rowdy and drunken acts. Of this year's squad of 47 players - their season canceled, their coach exiled and their university shamed - roughly a third have been charged with similar misdemeanors. In contrast, records show, only two members of Duke's 27-man soccer squad for this year have been arrested - on charges of misdemeanor property damage and resisting arrest. Four of this year's 22 baseball players have been arrested in connection with underage alcohol offenses, all misdemeanors, records show. Taken separately, the charges against Duke lacrosse players read like standard-issue, alcohol-fueled offenses of college students experiencing their first taste of freedom. Most are minor cases, quickly settled, that fall far short of the allegations of an escort service dancer who says she was gang-raped during a team party March 13 in the bathroom of a white rental house on Buchanan Boulevard where three lacrosse co-captains lived. None of the misdemeanor charges encompasses the ugliness of team member Ryan McFadyen's searing e-mail in which he threatened to kill and skin strippers or a racially provocative insult shouted by an unidentified white male on Buchanan Boulevard the night of the team party. But taken as a body of work, the charges track the noisy passage of a championship lacrosse team with a reputation for a swaggering sense of entitlement and privilege. They underscore the hard-drinking image of the Duke lacrosse team - which some residents say is a super-sized version of the university's elitist, party-hearty ethos. "There is a culture at Duke of an entitlement to be drunk in the evenings and on the weekends," said Robert Panoff, a former Notre Dame club lacrosse player who has lived for more than a decade in Trinity Park, the neighborhood on the edge of Duke's east campus where the lacrosse team captains lived. "That's the attitude that pervades the Duke campus, and it's not just the lacrosse team," said Panoff, founder and executive director of a nonprofit research and education organization. "There is a particular swagger at Duke. Is there a particular machismo and variation of that swagger on the lacrosse team? Absolutely." Panoff is quick to point out that lacrosse is not a monolithic culture. But for other Durham residents, the lacrosse imbroglio has raised racial tensions. The dancer who is alleging the rape is black. She says her three unidentified attackers are white. All but the team's lone black player have submitted to DNA tests, and Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong said results could be released this week. Nifong said he's confident the woman was sexually assaulted. But attorneys for the players say no rape, assault or sex occurred. 'Preppy arrogance' The case has ripped an already frayed town-and-gown relationship, underscoring the friction between the school, with its $41,000-a-year cost and walled campus, and the surrounding city. "It's this preppy arrogance that they will never be held accountable for what they've done - that their daddies will get them out of it," said Eugene Brown, a Durham city councilman who lives a block from the rental house. "What do you do when you walk out and some guy is urinating on your house and you ask him to stop and he refuses?" Brown said. "We've been living with this for years, and the lacrosse players were the worst." On the field, Duke's team has the reputation for playing a disciplined and aggressive brand of lacrosse, a fast-paced, hard-hitting game invented by American Indian tribes. Under coach Mike Pressler, who resigned last week, they won Atlantic Coast Conference championships in 1995, 2001 and 2002. Last year, they narrowly lost the NCAA championship game to another perennial lacrosse power, Johns Hopkins University of Baltimore. Former Duke baseball players say loutish behavior and dancers at team parties weren't just a lacrosse thing - they did the same thing and often joined the lacrosse team at tailgate parties during Duke football games. But Duke's current baseball players haven't racked up an arrest record like the lacrosse team's. Triangle court records show 16 lacrosse players currently on the roster have been arrested in the past three years on charges ranging from public urination on a private residence to underage possession of a malt beverage to helping a minor get a mixed drink. In addition, sophomore player Collin Finnerty and two friends were arrested last fall in Washington on simple assault charges. Finnerty was ordered to perform 25 hours of community service in Washington; if he does, the charges will be dropped, his attorney said. On Wednesday, university President Richard Brodhead announced five committees charged with investigating the culture of the lacrosse program, student conduct, Duke's handling of the gang-rape allegation and other issues. Brodhead said a faculty group will investigate the lacrosse team's renegade reputation and "look into that whole history and tell us whether that's true or not." 'An alcohol issue' Alcohol and young, aggressive athletes playing a violent game are a volatile combination, said William Scroggs, senior associate athletic director at UNC-Chapel Hill and chairman of the National Collegiate Athletic Association's rules committee for men's lacrosse. "Everything that goes wrong in intercollegiate athletics, behaviorally, revolves around alcohol," said Scroggs, UNC's former men's lacrosse coach, ticking off a list that includes drunken driving, fights and sexual assaults. "My personal opinion is it's an alcohol issue, not a lacrosse or athletics issue. These types of things don't happen on a Tuesday afternoon when no one's been drinking." Something very bad happened that night.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#70)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:59:39 AM EST

I don't think "every" prosecutor is relevant. Have you got a problem with this prosecutor? Has he shown himself to be "overzealous?" What would you have done differently?

It's wise to error on the side of caution. You never know what the police or prosecution is going to do with information provided to them.

but I believe their reputations have been tarnished far more by this wall of silence technique than they would have been had they risked acting like standard everyday good citizens.

Well, you are wrong. The court of public opinion would still have come to the same conclusions and now the prosecution would have had statements to use against the accused in a court of law.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#71)
by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:21:19 AM EST

Been a while. I played lacrosse when we used wooden sticks. Early Sixties. There is an aspect of lacrosse which may not be considered here, in terms of entitlement. It's an expensive sport. We started our team with a loan from the Midwest Lacrosse Coaches Association, and replacing equipment was always a problem. College kids weren't so flush back then. Many of us started to play lacrosse at that time. Some, from the East Coast, had played in high school. We had a steep learning curve, and fortunately were able to keep some of the firebreathers from trying to schedule Hopkins, Navy, and Syracuse (Jim Brown was playing then, I think) our first year. In order to become a good lacrosse player, you have to be at it from childhood, as people who play baseball are playing catch and hitting and so forth from age seven or so. But where it takes one soccer ball to keep twenty kids entertained, it takes one stick, one helmet, and a selection of pads to do any kind of scrimmaging in lacrosse. It's economically different. That's why, even today with the expansion of lacrosse at the secondary level, when you watch the NCAAs, the players are more likely, 'way more likely, to come from someplace that sounds like "St. Johns Academy", than "Skaneateles Consolidated". Lacrosse has the potential to combine the expectation of entitlement that is provided to any great athlete in high school with the entitlement that some of the better-off absorb with their mother's milk. I realize this is a broad brush and that the pathological combination is rare. I submit, however, that it's more likely in lacrosse than in other sports. I think lacrosse is a terrific sport, but it sometimes attracts annoying people. But, then, so does the practice of law.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#72)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:46:44 AM EST

Macromania, "It's wise to error on the side of caution. You never know what the police or prosecution is going to do with information provided to them." There's one world built on trust and another built on distrust. We can't completely control which world we're going to live in, but we can choose which world we build. You wrote: "The court of public opinion would still have come to the same conclusions and now the prosecution would have had statements to use against the accused in a court of law." I can't speak for the "court of public opinion" (as you seem to be able to), but I personally wouldn't have "come to the same conclusions." I respect people who prefer moral choices over strategic ones. The Duke students have compromised that dancer's right to a fair trial by keeping from police evidence vital to their investigation. Intentionally obstructing justice may be "prudent" for innocent and guilty alike, but prudence is not synonomous with "honor."

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#73)
by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:11:49 AM EST

>>Posted by Richard Aubrey April 11, 2006 08:21 AM >> "I think lacrosse is a terrific sport, but it sometimes attracts annoying people. But, then, so does the practice of law."<< I am a lawyer and I played lacrosse (at Duke) and the percentage of annoying people practicing law far exceeds the number of annoying people who played lacrosse. There is no question that lacrosse is a terrific sport and in 20 years will be one of the most watched sports as its popularity is growing leaps and bounds. >>Lacrosse has the potential to combine the expectation of entitlement that is provided to any great athlete in high school with the entitlement that some of the better-off absorb with their mother's milk.<< Lacrosse is no longer a "privilege" sport and has not been for quite awhile. (Duke on the other hand is a different story). The "entitlement" aspect of lacrosse may have been true about 15 year ago and before, but in the last 10 years lacrosse has grown to become the primary spring sport for many public schools... not just in the northeast but in places like Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit, Denver, Portland and the SF Bay area, to name a few. Furthermore, I continued to play for many years after college and the majority of the players graduated from public high schools. (Even when I played at Duke the majority of the players were from public schools. This whole thing about lacrosse being a preppy sport and for the "privileged" is left over from the sport's origins and belied by today's reality. It is just a means to further instigate negative emotions to this issue and highlight the difference between the accuser and the accused.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#75)
by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:25:59 AM EST

Kali. Did you play with wooden sticks? I'm glad to hear lacrosse is becoming more popular. Our practices were more popular than the varsity baseball games against other Big Ten schools. However: In Michigan, secondary school lacrosse got started in the wealthier school systems of Oakland County, and has spread from there...some. Most lacrosse outstate is women's lacrosse, a considerably less expensive version. And for most of the kids, it's the first time they've touched a stick. My point about the best laxers stands. Watch the next NCAAs. The kids who played lacrosse in some version of munchkin lax little league still have the skill level to outproportion if not flat outnumber the public school kids. And that means money. I also played football, and there is, I submit, an injury difference. In football, after a game, walking can be difficult. In lacrosse, for all the contact, serious injuries are few. So you get the testosterone and the adrenalin and the drama and the muscle memory of hard contact, but you aren't hurt (when maybe you should be). IMO, it provides an unconscious feeling of invulnerability. Yeah, there's some swagger. And we used a stick (simulated weapon) which goes back a million years in the back of the brain. Damn. If it weren't for forty years gone and the knees and....

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none / 0) (#76)
by Lora on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 08:31:46 AM EST

The prosecutor apparently feels that there is other evidence besides the DNA evidence that will show that a rape took place. Now unless he's just stupid or has another agenda besides pursuit of justice, I think it's premature to say he has no case. I still haven't seen any other reasonable explanation for the injuries and bruising on the alleged victim's private areas and any other results from the examination which concluded "consistent with rape." Anybody think she made her injuries up, too? Then how did she get those injuries? I guess it's possible she was raped before she attempted to dance. Hm, you are a victim of a painful rape. Then you go to your next gig and perform for a few minutes. I guess it's just barely possible, just as it's just barely possible she consented to whatever injuries she sustained. However, IF sex took place that night AND she was impaired, then she did NOT give consent. If so, was there any DNA other than her own found from her samples? If not, there are still injuries consistent with rape to explain. Is it possible to have sexual contact and not leave DNA behind? Yeah -- clothing, condom, type of activity -- it is also barely possible. I also thought the police were looking for any cameras that might have recorded any of the evening's events. How come the defense lawyers have them and not the police? I thought she was telling the truth. I'm not yet convinced she's lying -the opera ain't over, etc. I am tending to believe that she was hurt, and I'd like to know who hurt her and see that person(s) brought to justice. If it's shown she was lying, will I be angry about it and sympathetic to the entire team? Of course. Will I think they are entitled to some sort of recompense? Quite possilbly, starting with a public statement of apology. But I still think it's too soon to go there.

Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Ac (none /

Duke Lacrosse Case : No Players' DNA on the Accuser's Body

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