home

Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investigation

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 12:46:34 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

This is a continuation of yesterday's post on the DNA results in the Duke lacrosse players' case which failed to find any of the players' DNA on or within or on the surface of the accuser's body or any of her belongings or clothing. There was none under her fingernails. You can listen to the defense attorneys' news conference here.

The DA today said the case is not going away. There's more DNA testing to do. He can do DNA testing till the cows come home. If there was none in or on the accuser, none under her fingernails and none on her belongings, how will he ever prove a rape?

As to the DNA of two players found on the towel. I think it is meaningless. I debate the towel issue tonight on CNBC's Big Idea with Donnie Deutsch at 10 pm ET with my longtime sparring partner Wendy Murphy. A Duke student is on as well. I think it's the third segment second half of the show (the preceding two segments had "reformed" strippers whose new mission is to free women from working in the sex industry --they were great looking and very interesting to listen to.) It repeats at 1:00 am ET.

Here's why I think the towel won't matter. It was a bathroom shared by the two players whose DNA was on the towel. Everyone's DNA is in their bathroom. Even it was semen on the towel, which we don't know, it can't be dated to the night of the party. It is just as likely the result of one of them having sex with his girlfriend some night and the other one using the same towel. College boys aren't exactly known for their laundry skills. The ones I've known use up every piece of clothing and every towel, sheet and pillowcase before doing laundry.

If you're without tv, I'll be discussing the case on CBS news radio (KTSA) tonight (San Antonio) at 9:35 ET. You can listen live here. The host is Jack Riccardi .

The last thread topped 100 comments and is now closed, so feel free to continue on the new thread here.

Other bloggers following the Duke story: Captain's Quarters; Signifying Nothing; La Shawn Barber; See also, John Leo at U.S. News and World Report.

TalkLeft's Prior Posts on the Duke case:

< Tuesday Open Thread | Cheney Booed Loudly as He Throws Out First Pitch >

  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investigation | 87 comments (87 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#1)
    by joejoejoe on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:23:26 PM EST
    What is a 'reformed stripper'? Do you mean a 'former stripper'? The two meanings are not interchangeable.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#2)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    Regarding the towel, I think it's important to make it clear that "DNA" is not a synonym for "semen." Unfortunately, I think coverage of the Lewinsky matter planted the idea in some people's minds that the two terms mean the same thing. Wouldn't one expect that a rough cloth dragged across a wet body would become covered with skin cells, sweat, and maybe saliva?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#3)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:33:31 PM EST
    in the previous thread macromaniac asks:
    Why did you leave out these two dates?
    Nefarious intent, of course. OOPS! I left the link, so you caught me. The question was:
    Which came first, the lawyers' putting up the Blue wall, or the prosecution going public?
    While I though the date Duke broke it's silence was relevant because until then, the University was considered, by some, to be a brick in that wall, I did not think the defense lawyers calling a press conference, saying DNA tests will exonerate the players or the police saying officers saw nothing unusual when they were at the house 30 minutes before the alleged victim called were relevant to the question I was trying to answer. I wasn't trying to be dishonest.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 01:49:40 PM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion, I didn't realize you were answering a specific question with your post.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#5)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:04:46 PM EST
    macromaniac , I was answering the post just above mine, but I could have made it more clear. No harm.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#6)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:05:44 PM EST
    In response to a question asked by an NCCU criminal justice student, Nifong said the DNA tests are not finished. "We're still waiting for the results of DNA tests that have not been done," he said.
    JM, any idea what he's he saying here? That there are other DNA tests surrently being performed, that we're not aware of, that he's waiting for the results from? Or the DNA testing that's been done it not sufficient, and that more/different, DNA tests will be done, presumably by his directive? Are there DNA tests normally done that weren't done in this case? What other DNA tests are there?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:09:20 PM EST
    uh, that's "currently performed" and "Or that the DNA testing that's been done already is not sufficient,"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#8)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:13:26 PM EST
    DNA tests include swabs, which apparently take at least 48 hours to complete and skin and hair which can take as much as three weeks to complete. Despite the defense attorneys' claim yesterday, the DA cannot ignore the accusations of the victim and must continue the investigation. The timing with next months vote is unfortunate. The DA must continue the investigation until he can conclude that no crime occured or he has sufficient evidence to press charges. The evidence provided thus far indicates that a crime occurred. I don't know why the DA hasn't pressed battery charges in order to obtain the power of subpeona on the witnesses. Couldn't he later change those charges to include rape?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:14:46 PM EST
    joejoejoe--thanks for the comment on my description of the reformed stripper, I've updated to make it clearer. The women have started an organization and campaign to help women get out of the sex trade. It sounded like it has very religious overtones. Lots of talk about how G-d will still love them and they are welcome to attend their church--even if they are still in the business.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#10)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 02:56:06 PM EST
    Were there non-team members at the party? This would seem likely given the nature of college parties. On the TV coverage last week I heard a local reporter state he was told by a defense attorney that non team members were there. This was before the DNA results were reported. There is also some unverified gossip I found on a blog (Lordsutch) claiming that half of the team members had left by the time the dancers showed up, and there were mainly "fraternity" types left. On the other hand the search warrant affidavit states that the interviewed team captain claimed that only team members were present at the party.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:09:36 PM EST
    joejoejoe - most strippers are re-formed to some extent. chew2 - the party occured during Spring Break. Having been on Duke campus during this time of year, very few students are around. So it is entirely concievable that only team members were at the party.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:36:34 PM EST
    No amount of DNA tests will make the dancer's injuries go away. Someone hurt her.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 03:59:07 PM EST
    I am writing my congressman for the 5th time to have the media STOP identifying alleged suspects in any felony until after the criminal proceedings have concluded...... Not a chance. Politicians need crime too much for votes. This is why they lie about recidivism rates.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#14)
    by clio on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:08:23 PM EST
    An undertone of this whole mess is the fact that it is impossible for a woman, not trained for certain* professions, to earn as much as she can in the "soft" sex trade (stripping, exotic dance, escort etc). While high and middle class prostitutes, both male and female, can make considerably more I am not refering to fulltime prostitution, which is much more demanding. This work is often under the table, can fit with caring for a home and children - or attending classes - and can be on an "as needed" basis. Many of these women are married and supplement the family income this way. And surely we are all aware that this is an income source for those on "welfare." *teaching and nursing the major "pink collar" professions do not provide such income.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#15)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:29:58 PM EST
    Were there non-team members at the party? This would seem likely given the nature of college parties.
    I recall reading that the three players who were interviewed by police said there were no strangers at the party. Two fraternity guys that came with a lacrosse player were there at some point. Everyone else there was on the team.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#16)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:34:14 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, Thanks, makes sense. But why would team members be more likely to be around, than regular students. Team practices? If so would other athletes be around and likely to have attended the party? Second question: Was the second dancer black or white? I've seen both claimed. The two dancers supposedly had never met before. I've read on the Lordsutch blog that the second dancer came from a different escort agency. As many have noted, her testimony will be important. Can she verify that that both dancers locked themselves in the bathroom for 27 minutes as the defense seems to be claiming. Sounds very strange, but might make sense if threatening and/or boorish behavior by the drunken students had frightened them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 04:49:21 PM EST
    I guess some might want to know, but I dont know how to post a link here, but the accusers DNA was not even found in the bathroom where she claimed she was gang-raped.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#18)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 05:19:52 PM EST
    supramike, Even the defense is claiming the accuser was locked in the bathroom for 27 minutes. DNA or the absence thereof can't tell us everything. Plus it took two days before the search warrant. The bathroom could have been cleaned up by then.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:17:15 PM EST
    If a woman is raped in a bathroom for 30 minutes, how is that none of her DNA not show up anywhere in the bathroom? I mean if they cleaned up, then why dont they dont get the fingernails off the floor, and the purse and money? That just makes no sense whatsoever to me... How about you?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#20)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:21:00 PM EST
    Just what we need - another lawyer
    Also Tuesday, prominent Washington, D.C., attorney Bob Bennett stepped into the case, saying he has been retained by the Committee for Fairness to Duke Families, an newly formed organization of university supporters affiliated with major contributors, athletes and students. Bennett told the Associated Press that members of the Duke community are being judged "before all the facts are in." "It is grossly unfair, and cool heads must prevail," he said. "It is important to await the outcome of any investigations that are taking place. Facts are important and should not be disregarded."


    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:21:18 PM EST
    I've heard on several news outlets that there are pictures of the dancers as they arrived and that the one in question had the bruises when she got there. If she didn't acquire them there, how does this implicate the team?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#22)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 06:47:49 PM EST
    "If a woman is raped in a bathroom for 30 minutes, how is that none of her DNA not show up anywhere in the bathroom?" Why should it? Do you know why? I know nothing about DNA tests. I don't watch CSI. But if the DNA test results were only for semen as some claim, with hair and skin tests results later, then why would her DNA show up. Did she ejaculate? Why didn't the guys who used that bathroom daily have their DNA show up in the bathroom, except reportedly on a towel? I too am puzzled by why her finger nails, cel phone, money and other possessions weren't removed or cleaned up by the guys who lived there. BTW it's not absolutely clear to me that those objects were found in the bathroom and not somewhere else in the house, although that's the suposition.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 07:29:50 PM EST
    There were three sightings by Bissey, the neighbor: Midnight: Bissey sees the two women go into the house. 12:20 TO 12:30 a.m.: Bissey sees a man leaning into the window of a car parked outside the house. One of the women he saw earlier gets out of the car and says she needs to get her shoe. She walks to the back door of the house. Between 12:45 AND 1 A.M.: Bissey sees a car, which at least one of the women had been in earlier, speed away. We know according to a police report that the police arrived at 12:55 and saw nobody. We know police received the 911 call from the supermarket at 1:22. Between our last true sighting of the dancer and her arrival at the supermarket there is upwards of a half hour, during which time we are not quite sure where she or her supposed assailants claim to be. It's kind of an interesting 30 minute gap to explore, because the dancer says she was raped for thirty minutes AFTER she was coaxed back into the house, which may have been the event that Bissey witnessed between (according to his estimation) 12:20 and 12:30. Can the photographs prove the dancer a liar? They could! I would think that she would have difficulty explaining if the photographs showed her with less than four of her fake fingernails intact. Otherwise they may not be all that relevant. To our knowledge the dancer has not claimed that the injuries the lawyers claim she arrived with were injuries caused by her assailants.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:08:05 PM EST
    From the Mercury News, here's another account by Bissey, who appears to have given us numerous slightly different accounts to choose from. "[Jason Bissey] recalls seeing two women enter the house and leaving 15 to 20 minutes later with 20 to 30 students shouting something about money. One partyer persuaded the women to return. After another 20 to 30 minutes, the women left hurriedly and sped off - but not before one partyer shouted: 'Hey, b----. Thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt.'" Comment: This account allows a full thirty minutes for the rape to occur BEFORE the two women leave in the car. It's an account that very closely aligns with the dancer's story as related in the two search warrants.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#25)
    by cpinva on Tue Apr 11, 2006 at 10:46:00 PM EST
    given the info released thus far, there doesn't appear to be an overwhelming case made for this woman to have been assaulted and raped by the partygoers, as she claims. that isn't to say she wasn't, just that reasonable doubt prevails. she also seems to have a history of alcohol problems, which doesn't help matters any. at this juncture, i believe the prosecutor is correct in continuing the investigation. no charges need be filed to do that. hopefully, a thorough, complete investigation will get to the truth, behind all the chaff. i also think it would behoove both sides to shut the hell up in public, since everything they say at this point is speculative, except for the already completed DNA tests. until witnesses testify under oath, in court, none of this means anything. there are too many loose ends needing cleanup, before any firm conclusion can reasonably be drawn.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:18:34 AM EST
    I think the prosecutor made some glaring mistakes while investigating this case. First in his request to get the warrant for the DNA samples. Second, he promisses too much while he talks too much. I find his public comments inappropriate. I thought he looked foolish when he said "until he can identify the 3 men they will have walk around under a cloud [of suspicion]." He looked even more foolish when he chastized the press for calling her a stripper. I'm thinking he's hating this case right now and blames the media for what his alleged victim is. "Shush, don't mention she is a stripper/escort. Don't talk about the fact she has a violent record." Sorry bro, your alleged victim's credibility is questionable at best. He's got some major problems with his case and he's not helping his cause. Hey, how big was this bathroom? There's no way you could get 4 people in my bathroom. If she was forced to give oral, why didn't she take some flesh? Hell, when ever my girl gives me oral she can't help but scrape me up with her teeth. Did they force her to wear a mouth guard? Nothings adding up to rape. The prosecutor should shut the F'up and investigate. The civil case will be much more fun. That's what she's really after.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:42:01 AM EST
    The two examples of DNA found in the bathroom on a towel did not match the DNA of any of the 44 lacrosse players the dancer did NOT accuse of raping her. Have I got that right? It is always better for the accused when no dna gets found in the specific area where a false rape allegation is made. And better still when the dna that is found does not match the dna of the accused. That's not quite what happened here. It is always better for the defense when evidence doesn't have to be "explained away," which was the position TL found herself in last night on television. A time-stamped purporting to show a team captain ushering the dancer into her getaway car at 10:40 does not mesh well yet with Bissey's statement that he saw the two women drive away quickly three minutes before the police showed up (10:55). It may only be a twelve minute gap, but it's a twelve minute gap that occurs right when the women claims to have been raped.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:37:39 AM EST
    Sorry. Correction. The time-stamped "photo" should have read "12:40" or so, not "10:40", and the police arrival should have read "12:55," not "10:55." Duh.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#29)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:10:29 AM EST
    some stuff I hadn't read: A source has provided ESPN with a detailed account of the exotic dancer's arrival at the hospital the night of the alleged sexual assault at a party thrown by members of the Duke men's lacrosse team. The source, who asked to remain anonymous, was present at the hospital on the night of the alleged incident and says the woman was "beat up" but would not immediately divulge to anyone the identity of her alleged assailants. "She was hysterical," the source said. "She was crying, she was pretty banged up. She said she was sexually assaulted, but she didn't say by whom." The source says the woman entered the hospital well after midnight March 13 wearing a red nightgown and nothing on her feet. She was walking on her own, but there were bruises on her face, neck, and arms. A triage nurse attended to her, but the woman did not want him to touch her because he was a man. She was then examined by a sexual assault nurse. There were injuries to the woman's pelvic area, the source said. According to the source, the woman did not immediately inform either the police or the hospital staff who inflicted the injuries to her. "She never said one thing about Duke, any athlete or anything," the source said. "She just kept hollering and screaming. She never said who did it." The woman was discharged after approximately five hours.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#30)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:20:34 AM EST
    She was walking on her own, but there were bruises on her face, neck, and arms.
    I heard one of the defense attorneys say the photos show a cut to the woman's chin, but I've heard no mention of the photos showing bruises to her neck and arms.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#31)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:22:17 AM EST
    Nifong hints victim ID'd player
    And in response to another question about whether Nifong believes he still has a strong case, he answered: "Anytime that you have a victim who can identify her assailant, then what you have is a case that a judge would let go to the jury. Which means that in this situation I would expect that a jury would get to evaluate the evidence."
    Nifong's comments drew quick criticism from defense lawyers, who said they had not previously heard that any individual team member had been identified as a suspect. Durham lawyer Bill Thomas said it was "quite unusual" that Nifong withheld information about the purported identification until now.
    "It's amazing to me that now this woman says she can identify someone," said Thomas. "Why hasn't this information been revealed before?" Thomas said he and other defense lawyers bombarded Nifong with requests for details about the purported identification Tuesday afternoon, but received no response by late in the day
    .
    According to Thomas, the defense team is entitled to such details immediately, just as it was entitled by law to the DNA results announced Monday.
    "the defense team is entitled to such details immediately?" Anyone know if this is true? No one has been charged here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:23:24 AM EST
    The facts are the facts in this case. That's what's going to decide it. Hopefully, anyhow. That said, as far as the coverage goes, one thing was pointed out yesterday by a guy at NC Central. The other University in Durham the way the coverage of this story has been slanted since day one is totally different from the way oh, let's say some missing blond in Aruba is covered. Black chicks are skanks and missing blonds are the flying nun.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#33)
    by Lora on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:56:04 AM EST
    The "defense team" sounds like they're a bit over the top. First of all, how can you even have a "defense team" when no charges have been filed? You have no defendant. Second of all, how can they say that the dancer's ability to ID her assailant is news? This was mentioned early on. They are making a huge deal about Nifong's use of the singular instead of the plural. He was speaking generally, "anytime you have a victim who can identify her assailant" (bold mine) not about this particular case. Give me a break.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#34)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:26:07 AM EST
    Black chicks are skanks and missing blonds are the flying nun.
    While Holloway's credibility won't become an issue (unless she turns up alive), her behavior and judgment were criticized. If Holloway's case paralleled this one, I believe the differing slant would not be so much Black chick/blond babe as it would be stripper/honor student. Kaliedoggie posted this yesterday:
    Nifong had reason to be thorough with his investigation before going public given that the this girl was an escort. There is, believe it or not, a big difference between an escort and a stripper/dancer. Even strippers will say this. Why? Because it is common knowledge that escorts are basically prostitutes. My point, her chosen occupation does not attract the most forthright, honest and sober people.
    "her chosen occupation does not attract the most forthright, honest and sober people?" Hey, Kalidoggie, according to a Gallup poll, public perception is: neither does yours.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:52:40 AM EST
    Politics raises its head in lacrosse case By John Stevenson : The Herald-Sun jstevenson@heraldsun.com Apr 11, 2006 : 10:28 pm ET DURHAM -- The ongoing Duke lacrosse story took on a decidedly political bent Tuesday as the two challengers in the district attorney's race sharply criticized incumbent Mike Nifong for his handling of the case. Giving their most extensive public comments about the lacrosse situation just three weeks before the Democratic primary that will decide Durham's next district attorney, both Freda Black and Keith Bishop said Nifong misled the community by saying he believed a rape had occurred even before DNA evidence became available. Nifong would have been well advised to remain publicly silent about the case, rather than granting some 70 interviews -- many of them to national media outlets -- in one week, according to his opponents. The district attorney's office -- in a written request for a court order to obtain DNA samples from 46 lacrosse team members -- said the DNA testing would "immediately" provide "conclusive evidence" as to which three lacrosse players raped the dancer at a North Buchanan Boulevard house party last month. But when DNA test results were released by defense attorneys on Monday, they indicated that no DNA from any of 46 lacrosse players tested was present in or on the woman's body, on her clothing or belongings, or under her fingernails. Also, none of the woman's DNA was found in the bathroom where the alleged rape occurred. Two of the home's residents' DNA was found in the bathroom. No one has been charged in the case. "I would have been very certain of the facts before I jumped out in the media and virtually guaranteed an arrest," Bishop said in an interview Tuesday. "That, in my view, was callous," Bishop added. "It demonstrates an indifference to the victim that is significant. We have to ask ourselves if the DA is sensitive and conscientious enough. I don't feel he is up to snuff on that account." Nifong did not respond to a request made through his secretary for an interview Tuesday, and he left a public forum under police escort without answering questions. Bishop also noted a potential conflict of interest in the fact that defense lawyer James D. "Butch" Williams represents one of the lacrosse players, while at the same time he is a Nifong campaign supporter. "We as a community have to wonder whether we are getting a fair deal," said Bishop. "This situation gives the community a good reason not to trust what is going on. As DA, I certainly would not do anything like that." Williams disputed Bishop's characterization. "There's absolutely no conflict," Williams said. "It's not about who backs whom. When it comes time to be a professional, it's not personal at that particular point." Bishop said Nifong's public comments on the case have gone too far. "I would not be promising anything in public I could not deliver," Bishop said. "He has raised the hope of the community that someone will be charged. Either he knows something and is withholding it, or he doesn't know and went out on a limb playing politics. Neither of those positions was considerate of the young woman or the lacrosse players. "Look what we have now," Bishop added. "We have a polarized community as a result. Mr. Nifong is not competent to administer his office. If we have to endure four more years, God help us." Black declined to be interviewed. But she accepted e-mailed questions, to which she responded through her campaign manager, Brad Dixon of Campaign Connections, also by e-mail. Black, a former assistant district attorney who was forced out of the DA's office when Gov. Mike Easley promoted Nifong to the top job, took Nifong to task for, as she described it, being too vocal about the case. "By his commenting -- well before the facts were in -- things become so distorted that there is little hope that anyone -- alleged victim or alleged perpetrators -- will get anything close to justice," Black wrote. "All it has done is to sow the seeds of discord in our community and drive us further apart." Black wrote that she would "not comment on the facts of this case, I will not make one statement to guilt or innocence, or to whether a crime occurred -- and the District Attorney shouldn't have either." Black added that it was her style not to "try cases in the court of public opinion. I gather the evidence, weigh the facts, then I make my case to the jury. Statements based on partial facts and half-truths lead only to confusion and needless discord." Durham must look beyond the current avalanche of media attention surrounding the lacrosse case, Black suggested. "When the crews power down the lights and the last TV van packs up and heads back to its station, who will put the pieces back together here in Durham?" she wrote. "I'm ready to bring this community back together and restore the trust that has been lost," she wrote. "Throughout this campaign, we've gone into the neighborhoods, meeting people directly, finding out what was on their minds. Even before all this happened, they felt there was a disconnect between them and the people running the courthouse. We've got [to] bridge that divide. I'm ready to begin." This is Nifong's first run for district attorney since being appointed by Easley. Because there are no Republicans running, the May 2 Democratic primary will decide the race.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:59:35 AM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion wrote: >>"her chosen occupation does not attract the most forthright, honest and sober people?"<< >>Hey, Kalidoggie, according to a Gallup poll, public perception is: neither does yours.<< Everyone hates a lawyer until they need one...and no one recognizes that there is always a client who hired the lawyer to act on their behalf.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:03:37 AM EST
    Sometimes TL goes out on a limb that breaks. This will be the case in this case. Something bad happened that night. Faking hysteria and rape is so unplausible that I am suprised to read TLs comments.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:08:41 AM EST
    Posted by baltimoremom April 12, 2006 09:03 AM
    Something bad happened that night.
    My my, don't we have a firm grasp of the obvious. Are we going to move into the "water is wet" portion of our program now?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#39)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:36:33 AM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    Everyone hates a lawyer until they need one...
    I don't hate lawyers and I've never needed one. I know many lawyers very well. They are Public Defenders, D.A.s, criminal defense attorneys, and practitioners of just about every area of civil law. They are men and women, neophytes and veterans. My personal experience is that some are professional - some should be disbarred, some are teetotalers - some are drunks and drug addicts, some are mercenary - some are charitable, some are kind - some are cruel, some are honest and some are not. Of the lawyers I know, the majority, by far, are reputable attorneys and decent people. I'm wondering on what experiences Kalidoggie based his low opinion of strippers. Has he had a professional affiliation with them? Has he defended strippers, prosecuted strippers, or had strippers as witnesses?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:37:35 AM EST
    Saw this on another blog comparing two articles:
    Father learned daughter connected to Duke case from media reports (Duke Lacrosse Coach Threatened) Knight Ridder Newspapers; WRAL; NBC17 | TONYA JAMESON Posted on 03/31/2006 8:03:52 PM PST by Howlin DURHAM, N.C. - The father of the woman who has accused members of the Duke lacrosse team of sexually assaulting her said he didn't find out that his daughter was the reported victim - and that she is an exotic dancer - until a reporter visited his house. Duke Lacrosse Investigation Heats Up By ALLEN G. BREED : AP National Writer Apr 7, 2006 : 7:03 pm ET ....In June 2002, police records show, she stole the taxi of a man to whom she was giving a lap dance at a Durham strip club. The records say she led a sheriff's deputy on a winding chase at speeds of up to 70 mph, and tried to run him down as he approached the cab on foot....
    4 years of lies to her dad!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:46:13 AM EST
    Posted by Jesurgislac April 11, 2006 08:08 AM
    charlie: As is the strategy that Bush supporters are attempting with the Plame case: start from the assumption that anyone accusing the Bush administration of a crime is lying, and trash them: also, ignore all evidence that a crime was in fact committed. That doesn't seem to be a strategy you support when the victim is Joseph Wilson and the accused are the Bush administration. The medical evidence that the dancer was beaten up, raped, and sodomized, still exists. The absence of a DNA match proves either that she was not raped by a member of the lacrosse team, or that the men who raped her wore condoms. (The claim by the defense attorneys that all the DNA samples have been analysed and found negative is impossible: the timescale is wrong.) The evidence available says that the dancer was attacked at the party. The DNA match could have established which men attacked her. In the absence of a DNA link, and the silence of the other witnesses, it may be that no charge can be brought against any one of the men at the party: just as when a murder is committed, and the evidence shows that either one of two people did it - but no one can say which - both must be acquitted. That OJ Simpson was acquitted did not mean that Nicola Brown was not murdered: that there is insufficient evidence to prosecute any individual on the Duke lacrosse team does not mean that the gang rape the victim describes never happened.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#42)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:52:40 AM EST
    Kalidoggie posted
    4 years of lies to her dad!
    You're joking, right? Just in case you're not: Do we know if her father ever asked her if she worked as an exotic dancer? Does not volunteering information that may upset your parents make one a liar? If so, I would guess just about every college aged person has more than four years of lies under their belt.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:05:03 AM EST
    If it's true that she'd been hiding her stripping/hooking from her dad for a number of years, that would lend some support for the idea that (part of, maybe) her motivation to lie about the rape (if she did lie about it) was an attempt to save face with her father.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:25:19 AM EST
    Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that three students with everyting to live for would recklessly throw away their reputations and freedom in the manner described (not to mention that there were upwards of 43 potential witnesses to the mayhem). One drunken fool, maybe. Two, unlikely. Three, highly doubtful. Of course, this opinion is not evidence and not important in the continuing investigation to get at the truth.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#45)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:38:11 AM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one posted
    If it's true that she'd been hiding her stripping/hooking from her dad for a number of years, that would lend some support for the idea that (part of, maybe) her motivation to lie about the rape (if she did lie about it) was an attempt to save face with her father.
    If she hadn't made the rape allegation, odds are her father would never have found out she worked as an exotic dancer. Doing so, guaranteed he would find out.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:52:15 AM EST
    Well, two 911 calls were made, the cops were involved, she was so injured her dad says "she could barely get out of the car," and was admitted to a hospital. Odds are her dad would have found out something went down that night whether she claimed rape or not.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:00:40 PM EST
    IMHO Wrote:
    Do we know if her father ever asked her if she worked as an exotic dancer?
    So....a parent, in this case who probably cares for her two children when she is on the job, or anyone for that matter, must run down the possibilities when discussing/asking about one's job? Hmmm... Are you a teacher? No. Are you a clerk? No. Are you a researcher? No. Are you a bus driver? No. Are you a meter-maid? No Are you a stand-up comedian? No. Are you a landscaper? No. Are you a plumber? No. Are you an escort? Yes, we have a winner!
    Does not volunteering information that may upset your parents make one a liar?
    Yes. An ommission is equal to a misrepresentation. Just because someone gets upset does not mean it is not a lie. The point is credibility. Something everyone questioned immediately and without hestitation of the players, while assuming that the accusser was beyond scrutiny whatsoever. Everything is contextual, there are no absolutes.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#48)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 02:22:01 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    The point is credibility. Something everyone questioned immediately and without hestitation of the players, while assuming that the accusser was beyond scrutiny whatsoever.
    Not everyone. You didn't fall into that trap. You know too much about strippers. I asked:
    Do we know if her father ever asked her if she worked as an exotic dancer?
    Kalidoggie replied:
    So....a parent, in this case who probably cares for her two children when she is on the job, or anyone for that matter, must run down the possibilities when discussing/asking about one's job? Hmmm... Are you a teacher? No. Are you a clerk? No. Are you a researcher? No. Are you a bus driver? No. Are you a meter-maid? No Are you a stand-up comedian? No. Are you a landscaper? No. Are you a plumber? No. Are you an escort? Yes, we have a winner!
    Short version: "No." mercurynews.com
    He said he also found out through the media that his daughter, who is the youngest of three, was an exotic dancer. "She always told me she was going to work," he said.
    Could be a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. I asked:
    Does not volunteering information that may upset your parents make one a liar?
    Kalidoggie replied:
    Yes. An omission is equal to a misrepresentation. Just because someone gets upset does not mean it is not a lie.
    So you would concede that, by your standard, just about every college aged person has more than four years of lies under their belt? Do you think any of the lacrosse team members have made lies of omission/misrepresentation to their coaches or parents? If yes, could we use this fact to attack their credibility? Is not telling your parent you work as an escort a bigger lie than not telling your parent you hire escorts? People don't tell their parents things for many reasons, one is to not hurt their parents. That is one of the reasons many men and women do not tell their parents they have been raped. Would you use that fact to question their credibility if they were the victim of a subsequent crime?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#49)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:19:13 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one posted:
    Well, two 911 calls were made, the cops were involved, she was so injured her dad says "she could barely get out of the car," and was admitted to a hospital.
    Odds are her dad would have found out something went down that night whether she claimed rape or not.
    Assuming she was not sexually assaulted: She ends up in Kim's car at Krogers. She's crying pretty hard in the tape - maybe because they gave her a bad scare with the broom and the racial slurs, maybe because her purse, money, cell phone, ID, make up clothes and one shoe got left behind. If Kim is the person who made the first 911 call, we know she has a cell phone. Neither she nor Kim call the police. It is the security guard who calls. From the descriptions by the security guard ("intoxicated, drunk or something"), Kim (fairly drunk) and ESPN's anonymous source that claims to have seen her at the hospital (hysterical), it sounds as if she was in no condition to formulate a plan, but the police show up and she has a decision to make. She decides to lie about being raped so her father will not be as mad at her if he finds out she is stripper as a result of her being taken to the hospital? Doesn't work well for me.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#50)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:22:46 PM EST
    Defense Attorney: Someone Will Be Charged Bill Thomas:
    "I am very concerned that if one of these men is put in jail and cannot post bond, he would immediately become a target within the jail," Thomas told Eyewitness News.
    If that happens, it would be a good time for the players that made the racial slurs and the player that held up a broom while making his "broom joke" to come forward. It might spare their teammate the fear of being raped in prison. I wonder how funny that broom joke will seem if it is directed at one of their teammates? The turnabout in this case is stunning.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:28:17 PM EST
    I would think that, innocence assumed, the Duke guys would actually benefit from a trial. I don't think it's possible to prove one's innocence in the Press. I realize that it isn't necessary to prove one's innocence in court, but it is actually a pretty good place to do it. The bogus evidence gets weeded out, and as a defendant you get to see everything the cops have on you. You don't have to take the stand, but they can't stop you from taking it either, to tell your story. There are risks, of course, but there's also a lot of rules about what constitutes fair evidence that don't exist in the real world.It's not something to fear. It's something to welcome.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:16:03 PM EST
    If that happens, it would be a good time for the players that made the racial slurs and the player that held up a broom while making his "broom joke" to come forward. It might spare their teammate the fear of being raped in prison.
    Whether or not a statement of apology is made, anyone charged and held will be a target in prison. Your advice is bad advice from a defense standpoint. Their specific apologies would most likely be used against them at trial. If anyone is charged, they should keep their mouth shut and let their attorney handle the case.
    I wonder how funny that broom joke will seem if it is directed at one of their teammates?
    Perhaps you can lecture them on their poor choice of alleged comments.
    The turnabout in this case is stunning.
    So is the court of public opinion.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:18:54 PM EST
    imho, if the scenerio is anywhere near accurate, she could have felt that as a (rape) victim she would get a better response from her dad (and others) than if they found out only that she was a stripper/hooker. I can't spell it out any clearer than that. Whether it works for you or not is immaterial. If at all accurate, it only has to work for her. Although, gotta say, it is starting to sound eerily close to "To Kill a Mockingbird" for me...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:41:03 PM EST
    Macromaniac writes: "Your advice is bad advice from a defense standpoint. Their specific apologies would most likely be used against them at trial." Defendants who save their apologies for the penalty phase don't usually get much bang for their buck. Defense lawyers who recommend that their clients force the Prosecution to prove the easily proveable don't do their clients the slightest service. They just look dishonest to jurors. Jurors don't like to feel that they are being hoodwinked, or that the lawyers don't take their oaths seriously. There's no way of measuring accurately how many false positives (innocents convicted) the court system produces, but I don't think it would surprise anybody if we were to discover that there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty. We've seen that here from the get-go. I would wager that this particular source of false positives is vastly more epidemic than those caused by "overly zealous prosecutions." But you get what you paid for. It's hard to feel sorry for this particular class of innocents, because they made their own beds.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#55)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:49:08 PM EST
    macromaniaca posted
    Perhaps you can lecture them on their poor choice of alleged comments.
    You are right. It is only an allegation. I should have made that clear. Thank you for the correction. macromaniaca posted:
    Your advice is bad advice from a defense standpoint.
    Their specific apologies would most likely be used against them at trial.
    If anyone is charged, they should keep their mouth shut and let their attorney handle the case.
    This is where "covering one's ass" could, literally, leave a teammate's ass exposed.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#56)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:50:31 PM EST
    That could add new meaning to the phrase "taking one for the team,"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#57)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:05:17 PM EST
    sarcastic unnamed one , I don't see how being admitted to the hospital with cuts and bruises would lead her father to finding out she was working for an escort service, but you are right, it only has to work for her at that time a place. You posted
    Although, gotta say, it is starting to sound eerily close to "To Kill a Mockingbird" for me...
    Ah... to have Atticus Finch defending the the players ...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:15:30 PM EST
    Defense lawyers who recommend that their clients force the Prosecution to prove the easily proveable don't do their clients the slightest service. They just look dishonest to jurors.
    What does that have to do with my post? If you read what I wrote, it was directed towards their defense, not the penalty phase of their trial should they be convicted. And what in the hell do you mean by the easily provable? Perhaps you can explain to everyone just what in this case is easily provable. So far, from the facts I have read, the prosecution is facing an uphill battle.
    There's no way of measuring accurately how many false positives (innocents convicted) the court system produces, but I don't think it would surprise anybody if we were to discover that there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty. We've seen that here from the get-go. I would wager that this particular source of false positives is vastly more epidemic than those caused by "overly zealous prosecutions."
    Well, that's reassuring. Perhaps you would like to click here and read some facts about actual exonerations before you infer that, "... I don't think it would surprise anybody if we were to discover that there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty. I would wager that this particular source of false positives is vastly more epidemic than those caused by 'overly zealous prosecutions.'"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:34:16 PM EST
    This is where "covering one's ass" could, literally, leave a teammate's ass exposed.
    You are living in a dream world if you think that anything these men have to say about any racist or derogatory statements they allegedly made to those strippers is going to save them from potential harm, in prison, while awaiting trial.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:42:01 PM EST
    Hi Macromaniac, You wrote: "If you read what I wrote, it was directed towards their defense, not the penalty phase of their trial should they be convicted." Same here. You wrote: And what in the hell do you mean by the easily provable? Perhaps you can explain to everyone just what in this case is easily provable. There will be many things which will be easy for the Prosecution to prove. Among them, I predict, will be whether or not anyone actually held up a broom and made a joke about a sex toy. The joke may even be recorded on videotape, but if it is not, witnesses will come forward, if only because they will bargain for immunity. You wrote: "Perhaps you would like to click here...." No, I wouldn't, but thanks for the suggestion.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:48:56 PM EST
    No, I wouldn't, but thanks for the suggestion.
    Well, too bad for you. I guess ignorance is bliss.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#62)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:08:29 PM EST
    QUESTION OF PLAYERS' CREDIBILITY ROCKS DEFENSE PLAYER'S FATHER REVEALS SOME PLAYERS LIED nes14.com
    The kids took the DNA test because there was a court order saying that they had to, but many of them never even called their parents. They really didn't take the charges seriously," said Mark Koesterer, father of Duke lacrosse player Ben Koesterer's father.
    Sorry all. But if journalists used Kalidoggie's standard* for what constitutes a lie and impinges on one's credibilty, these would be fitting headlines for the above article. *Kalidoggie's standard: I asked:
    Does not volunteering information that may upset your parents make one a liar?
    Kalidoggie replied:
    Yes. An ommission is equal to a misrepresentation. Just because someone gets upset does not mean it is not a lie.
    The point is credibility. Something everyone questioned immediately and without hestitation of the players, while assuming that the accusser was beyond scrutiny whatsoever. Everything is contextual, there are no absolutes.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:51:40 PM EST
    Hi Macromaniac, You wrote: "I guess ignorance is bliss." Well, perhaps it is, but are you certain that's relevant here? Are you certain I am not quite familiar with the Innocence Project? Are you certain I require homework assignments? I appreciate that you feel the need to teach me to understand the world in the way you do. Look back at your posts to me... Would you actually recommend yourself to be my teacher?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:40:55 PM EST
    IMHO, don't fall for the trolls like Kalidoggie...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:57:52 PM EST
    Well, perhaps it is, but are you certain that's relevant here? Are you certain I am not quite familiar with the Innocence Project? Are you certain I require homework assignments? I appreciate that you feel the need to teach me to understand the world in the way you do. Look back at your posts to me... Would you actually recommend yourself to be my teacher?
    Please... You made an erroneous, uneducated inference that, "...there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty..." and you, "...would wager that this particular source of false positives is vastly more epidemic than those caused by 'overly zealous prosecutions.'" I called you on it with some actual facts and you balked. If you were intimately aware of the Innocence Project and the cases involved, you wouldn't have made the type of blanket over-generalized inference you did. I find it ironic that the first case profile chronologically listed on the Innocence Project's Website, defendant Gary Dotson, is that of a false rape allegation. To answer your question regarding the relevance of the link to the Innocence Project's Website, yes, based on the facts of just this one case (there are several others) it is relevant.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#66)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:11:46 PM EST
    Spyderman posted:
    IMHO, don't fall for the trolls like Kalidoggie..
    Oh thanks, now you tell me he's just trolling. I did ask him if he was joking, but he denied it. Don't tell me he LIED!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#67)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:12:38 PM EST
    Logic? posted:
    Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that three students with everyting to live for would recklessly throw away their reputations and freedom in the manner described (not to mention that there were upwards of 43 potential witnesses to the mayhem). One drunken fool, maybe. Two, unlikely. Three, highly doubtful. Of course, this opinion is not evidence and not important in the continuing investigation to get at the truth.
    Hi Logic? google: gang rape university or: gang rape team the first dozen pages are about this case, but there are other cases involving football teams, basketball teams, rugby teams, most of the cases I read involved female students that were very, very, drunk, some out cold. Some cases involved over six men - one twelve. Most of the cases I read about did not go to trial. The victim was too drunk to positively indentify the men. Some men plead to lesser charges. In one case, one of the boys'(all three were 17 yrs. - the victim was 16) father was quite wealthy. He bank rolled the defense team. Despite these creeps video taping the assault, the first trial ended in a hung jury. A second trial found the three guilty of nine felonies, including sexual penetration with a variety of objects. They are in prison - a rare outcome. All the men in the above stories had plenty to lose, few lost it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:40:33 PM EST
    Hi Macromaniac, You wrote: You made an erroneous, uneducated inference that, "...there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty..." I'm not sure how you would show that this statement, as edited by you, is erroneous or uneducated. But that hardly troubles me, since it isn't the sentence I wrote. I wrote: I DON"T THINK IT WOULD SURPRISE ANYBODY IF WE WERE TO DISCOVER THAT [caps added] there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty. It's a completely different sentence. See why I don't care to mix it up with you? I then said I would WAGER that lawyer dishonesty is a vastly greater cause of innocent people being convicted than prosecutorial zeal. You characterized this wager as "over-generalized." I have no idea what you mean by that. My suspicion is that you don't either. You wrote: "To answer your question regarding the relevance of the link to the Innocence Project's Website, yes, based on the facts of just this one case (there are several others) it is relevant." Sorry, I never asked about the relevance of the link. I asked about the relevance of "ignorance" being "bliss." Right? A cursory look at the link reveals that it doesn't actually have much relevance to my conjecture. I don't know how they determined the "factors" they attribute the convictions to, but zealousness and dishonesty are not among them. Gary Dotson isn't a very good example of prosecutorial zeal. He was a victim of false testimony. I do not recall whether his lawyer presented an honest case or not. I would think you'd have to poll the jurors to figure out what influence such effects might have on the conviction.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 01:12:17 AM EST
    Hi Macromaniac, You wrote: You made an erroneous, uneducated inference that, "...there are innocent people in jail purely because their lawyers had no commitment to honesty..." I'm not sure how you would show that this statement, as edited by you, is erroneous or uneducated. But that hardly troubles me, since it isn't the sentence I wrote.
    No... You have taken my quote from your original statement out of context because you didn't include the full text. You conveniently left out the rest of my quote:
    and you, "...would wager that this particular source of false positives is vastly more epidemic than those caused by 'overly zealous prosecutions.'"
    I left out...
    I DON"T THINK IT WOULD SURPRISE ANYBODY IF WE WERE TO DISCOVER THAT
    ...because it conveniently makes your statement a passive sentence and allows you to attack, which you did, my interpretation of what you were trying to convey.
    You characterized this wager as "over-generalized." I have no idea what you mean by that. My suspicion is that you don't either.
    I characterized your entire statement as over-generalized, not your wager. See my above statement regarding your use of a passive sentence. You made an inference (trying to call it a wager) with no supporting data.
    Sorry, I never asked about the relevance of the link. I asked about the relevance of "ignorance" being "bliss." Right?
    Sorry, my mistake.
    A cursory look at the link reveals that it doesn't actually have much relevance to my conjecture. I don't know how they determined the "factors" they attribute the convictions to, but zealousness and dishonesty are not among them.
    Here is a link to data regarding police and prosecutorial misconduct providing relevance to your conjecture.
    Gary Dotson isn't a very good example of prosecutorial zeal. He was a victim of false testimony. I do not recall whether his lawyer presented an honest case or not. I would think you'd have to poll the jurors to figure out what influence such effects might have on the conviction.
    I never stated that his case was a good example of prosecutorial zeal. I stated I found it ironic that his case involved a false rape allegation, which has some direct relevance to the investigation in question for the simple fact that false rape allegations have occurred in the past. Also, Gary Dotson's false rape allegation occurred because the victim...
    ...said she had fabricated the rape to hide a legitimate sexual encounter with her boyfriend.
    There is the possibility that this case is a false rape allegation because the victim is trying to hide something. Admittedly, since I originally thought you were asking about the relevance of the link and not my "ignorance is bliss" statement, I'm sure my statement of relevance was lost in translation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 05:39:45 AM EST
    Hi Macromaniac, You wrote: "I left out...'I DON"T THINK IT WOULD SURPRISE ANYBODY IF WE WERE TO DISCOVER THAT' ...because it conveniently makes your statement a passive sentence [blah blah blah]." Some would consider that a "lie of ommission." It doesn't merely change the voice, it alters the meaning entirely. You wrote: "Here's a link to data regarding police and prosecutorial misconduct." Do you find that data useful toward settling the bet? Or do you have some other reason for posting it. My conjecture about the ill effect of dishonest defense attorneys ON THEIR CLIENTS pales in significance beside the conjecture I would make were I to comment on the effect of dishonest lawyering ON SOCIETY. False negatives (guilty who go free) are even harder to measure than false positives, but we have structured our court system in such a way that we should expect them to outnumber false positives by a factor of, oh, I'll guess a hundred. No doubt a Guilt Project would find dishonest lawyering a significant factor in the generation of guilty people who have been exonerated. Defense Attorneys don't like to talk about that. It's not their job.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#71)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 06:39:17 AM EST
    Duke DNA tests inconclusive, not an acquittal
    "This test clears these young men conclusively," Durham lawyer Bill Thomas said. No, it doesn't, and Thomas undoubtedly knows it. But after weeks of complaining that Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong was attempting to convict the lacrosse players in the media, the suspects' lawyers are making every effort to acquit them in the same venue.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 06:48:41 AM EST
    Perhaps the best that can be said is that the DNA results, taken by themselves, are "consistent with" a person who has not been raped.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 08:13:07 AM EST
    Some would consider that a "lie of ommission." It doesn't merely change the voice, it alters the meaning entirely.
    Your use of passive voice is indecisive, misleading, unclear, and a deliberate tactic to obfuscate the direction of discussion. In short, it is a variation of a lie. My alleged "lie of omission" is nullified by my full disclosure and explanation, which you quoted as "blah blah blah", as to why I did not include the text in question.
    Do you find that data useful toward settling the bet?
    You made an inference, not a "bet". The "bet" is rhetorical when you employed the use of passive voice. In other words, I had to wade through the bulls**t to get to the real meaning.
    Or do you have some other reason for posting it.
    My reason for posting the link is to show that convictions and jail time is, at times, a result of prosecutorial misconduct. I am not stating that prosecutorial misconduct is more or less prevalent than the "lack of commitment to honesty" by defense attorneys.
    My conjecture about the ill effect of dishonest defense attorneys ON THEIR CLIENTS pales in significance beside the conjecture I would make were I to comment on the effect of dishonest lawyering ON SOCIETY.
    I would never argue that point. However, "dishonest lawyering" is only part of the problem.
    False negatives (guilty who go free) are even harder to measure than false positives, but we have structured our court system in such a way that we should expect them to outnumber false positives by a factor of, oh, I'll guess a hundred.
    This premise goes back hundreds of years and is not new.
    No doubt a Guilt Project would find dishonest lawyering a significant factor in the generation of guilty people who have been exonerated. Defense Attorneys don't like to talk about that. It's not their job.
    The opposite is true for prosecutors. It is a two way street.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 09:13:01 AM EST
    These athletes are not innocent! Their actions led to these charges and their treatment of the women led to what has happened. Hopefully they are innocent of raping the women who entertained them at their party. But they ARE guilty of holding a drunken party, inviting poor, stoned, scantily clad women from the neighboring town to entertain them, calling them racial epithets -- and not calling the police or coming to the womens' aid when one of them fell and lay on their front porch. Is that how you would want them to treat YOUR sisters? Is that the behavior we expect of our young athletes? Is it really OK for these 'nerdy' white boys to treat black women from the nearby town that way? Is it OK because they paid for the entertainment? Is it OK to ask for sex for money just because the women may exchange sex for money? Is it OK to call women names because they come to a house party in negligees to entertain drunken 'frat boys'?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 11:20:09 AM EST
    MS -- those are different issues, and ones that are appropriate for a discussion of the moral and ethical implications. They do not enhance a discussion of whether the accuser was raped. The allegation of sexual assault is the discussion here. I do think the alleged racial insults are relevant to the extent that they may have been the motive for the rape allegation -- revenge is one of the key motives in false allegation cases. Another might be her anger over the money.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#76)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 12:33:47 PM EST
    Talkleft and MS, What racist comments? The only independent allegation I've seen was the "thank your daddy for the shirt" allegedly heard by the neighbor Bissey. Not that terrible in my book. BTW I still wonder was the second dancer black? And is it proven that the second dancer both made the first 911 call and was the "kim" at the Krogers. The reports strongly indicate that the alleged victim was assaulted, probably in the genital areas. She was "beaten up" (the emergency room witness), had a swollen face (father) and had bruising around the vaginal and anal and possibly neck areas (search warrant). The defense seems to only claim that she had prior bruising on her legs. Getting beat up is to my mind is a stronger motive for bringing a false rape charge. She was beaten up and robbed by the team, but wanted to get back at them by making a more serious charge than just assault and robbery.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 12:48:22 PM EST
    Let's hope you're wrong, chew2.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 01:10:19 PM EST
    4:00 EST Dan Abrams is reporting on MSNBC: A new e-mail has surfaced that looks like a member of the team may be cooperating with the prosecution. It is sent from the e-mail address of one of the players It was sent to about 20 players, in groups of three. subject line: Sorry Guys "I'm going to the police tomorrow to tell them everything I know" Attorneys are denying it is from the student and claiming he was in class when the e-mail was sent.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case: DA Will Continue Investiga (n