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Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Needed No Medical Attention

Via Signifying Nothing, the Associated Press reports a radio call by one of the officers responding to the grocery store 9-11 call five minutes after it was made at 1:30 a.m. reported the accuser was passed out drunk and not in need of medical attention.

The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person and said the woman was unconscious. When asked whether she needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed-out drunk."

Contrary to earlier reports by the media, no more DNA testing is being done. All the results are in.

The DA is taking the case to the grand jury and defense attorneys predict at least one player will be indicted. The D.A. said the accuser last week, three weeks after the incident, was able to identify one attacker. Reports are it was from a photo lineup.

Who wants to bet the only persons in the lineup were Duke Lacrosse players? If it didn't contain any foils (persons resembling her description of the perpetrators who have nothing to do with events of that evening) it's a bad lineup. One of the four key rules in proper eyewitness identification procedures is that the lineup must contain known innocents.

Also, if the accuser's motive is revenge -- either over the racial slurs or the money -- her selection of a player in a lineup may just mean he's the one that angered her the most.

TalkLeft's Posts on the Duke case:

[Comments now closed, a new thread is here.]

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    What is your bias here? Why so pro Duke lacrosse players? What is your deal?

    How shocking that a DA would pander right before an election. Was that the breeze or was that the accusers credibility blowing out the window?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 04:55:10 PM EST
    baltimore mom, Check out some information ABOUT the site -- it's run by defense attornies, and has an openly proclaimed defense oriented point of view. It also deals with other political matter, but when it comes to cases like this, the defense attorney POV is what you get here from TalkLeft. That's the point, the purpose, the angle. Stick around, look around, we don't bite.

    TalkLeft is a criminal defense site. It is not a neutral site and supports the rights of those accused of crime. That being said, I believe all the information on it is accurate and sourced. You are free to draw your own conclusions, but if you want to assume guilt, you will be happier at another site.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#5)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 05:12:14 PM EST
    TL Pro-defense? How come you're not defending Libby and Rove? Or did I miss something? My politics are leftwing, so I tend to be biased in favor of the underdog, the oppressed and under represented. That's why I find your partisanship on behalf of the Duke lacrosse team surprising. Of course, I gather you appear on those TV crime shows and have to represent the Defense point of view.

    Abbe Lowell was on ESPN's Pardon the Interruption the other day, and made an important point. The specific question was, now that the case against the LAX players seems to be imploding, did the school/community overreact to the incident? Lowell's point was that you have to distinguish between the morality and the legality of what was known to have happened: just because these guys are scumbags doesn't mean that they can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed a crime. The converse is true as well: even if these guys are never charged with anything, they are indeed scumbags nonetheless, and cancelling their season and accepting the coach's resignation was perfectly appropriate. The fact that these guys hired two African-American escorts for their amusement has, as far as I've read, not been sufficiently scrutinized. If the lacrosse players are like any college athletes I'm familiar with, they don't have trouble getting dates. So it's perfectly fair to infer that they hired the escorts mainly to humiliate them, and that the race of the escorts was part of the plot. What is not in dispute in this case is sick enough, whether or not anything illegal comes to light. These guys, even if they are never charged, have not been treated unfairly in the slightest.

    Chase wrote: "Turns out the accuser/stripper/whore was 'passed-out drunk'." That was the first impression of the security guard at Kroger's who called the police. But she changed her mind "once she went to the car." "But in an interview Tuesday night, the guard, Angel Altmon, said that once she went to the car and saw the woman, she no longer thought she was intoxicated. In particular, there was no odor of alcohol, Altmon said. 'Somebody must have slipped her something, because she wasn't drunk," Altmon said. "If she was drunk I would have smelled something.' " Comment: There's a reason why people don't lose DWI cases on the mere say-so of cops claiming they are drunk. Defense attorneys know that cops have no special ability to determine whether a person is drunk.

    So be it. It's not for me. Trashing the accuser, especially in a rape case, is BS. I would say TL picks and chooses what defense to back. Defendants Libby and Moussoui don't get much sympathy but Duke Lacrosse (sexist, racist, alcoholic jerks) do? I think this is strange behavior for a liberal blog.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 06:10:21 PM EST
    All the political crap aside:
    The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person and said the woman was unconscious.
    If you find someone unconcious, they are probably in need of medical attention. whether they are sick, drugged or drunk, if you can't rouse them, there is something seriously wrong. Cops aren't doctors, they shouldn't make medical decisions. See hyperglycemic, hypoglycemic, et al. This cop made a bad decision, one he had no right to make. Caveat: if the reporting is acurate and those were the terms used.

    baltimoremom - how is raising a perfectly reasonable question about the way in which the lineup was conducted "BS"? Wait, I forgot - since any reasonable person can clearly see, just from reading the newspapers, that these guys are all Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!, why on earth is a liberal blog wasting our time with anything but a "hang 'em high" post? Now I got it. Fight the power!

    baltimoremom:
    Defendants Libby and Moussoui don't get much sympathy


    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#12)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 07:22:46 PM EST
    Trashing the accuser, especially in a rape case, is BS. Baltimormom, You will not find one quote where this site's host trashes the accuser. She merely points out the facts from the perspective of "what if I was defending this person?". It's not personal. If this case were resolved in favor of the players, the host of this site could just as quickly defend the woman in this case from a charge of filing a false police report. It's their job. They're all crazy til you need one, eh?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 07:29:57 PM EST
    Che, nice work.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimcee on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 07:35:51 PM EST
    Perhaps this case had the demographics that incite certain folks with an idealogical axe to grind. Obviously the media has some idealogical investment in this story and are just now back pedaling to avoid coming off as accusatory toward yuppie sportsman. Funny how that same media avoids basketball and football scandals because it dodges the commercial bullet so to speak. Lacrosse on the otherhand is easy to attack because it won't hurt the network/college sports relationship or in otherwords the bottom line. The NYTimes' David Brooks was on point when he pointed out the story was less about rape than it was about a preconceived media template of sociologic racism and classism. Those that condemn the accused without trial are nothing more than the prole hags that cry j'accuse without evidence.

    Sorry for partial post, I hit the button by mistake. baltimoremom:
    Defendants Libby and Moussoui don't get much sympathy
    I disagree. Read the first post about Libby and just about any post about Moussaoui for the last three years. Or cite an example of TL not being sympathetic to Moussaoui's position as a defendant (in what is nothing more than a show-trial).

    TalkLeft titled this thread: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Needed No Medical Attention I read she was wearing a see-through nighty, but did he get a good look at her vaginal and anal areas? Won't the photos the defense team described refute the officer's claim? heraldsun.com (sorry had to disable the links)
    The photos show the woman attempting to get back inside the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. where the attack allegedly occurred on the night of March 13-14, said attorney Bill Thomas, who represents one of the lacrosse players.
    "She had a big smile on her face," Thomas said.
    Then the woman fell down at the back door of the house and lay on the ground "for quite some time" as if she were intoxicated or asleep, Thomas added.
    In addition, the time-stamped photos indicate the woman was severely bruised on her legs and face, and had cuts on her legs, knees and feet when she arrived at the home -- and before the rape allegedly occurred -- Thomas said.
    TalkLeft posted:
    Contrary to earlier reports by the media, no more DNA testing is being done. All the results are in.
    Great! The photos can be released now: Attorney: Photos will clear Duke lacrosse players (disabled link)
    Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.
    "This young lady was substantially impaired. She had fallen several times during the course of the evening," Thomas said.
    He declined to identify the player he represents and said he would not release the photos, taken by at least two cameras, until pending DNA tests are completed


    baltimoremom, I'm curious. What is your opinion about the Scott Peterson trial? If you think he received justice, you are missing the point of this site. If you're not familiar with the details, there are plenty available online, starting here and here. I find TL's position on this case (and others) to be a refreshing change from the almost bloodthirsty attitudes of the popular media, who want to set themselves up as police, prosecutor, judge, and jury and turn in a guilty verdict from the start. If you believe in justice, it is sickening. Remember the presumption of innocence in our legal system, please! In this case, the Duke students have not even been charged with anything. And even if they were, they would still be innocent, and would remain innocent every day until a guilty verdict was returned, if it ever was. We should never allow our sympathy for the situation of any victim to cloud our understanding of how the legal system works.

    Che wrote:
    the host of this site could just as quickly defend the woman in this case from a charge of filing a false police report. It's their job.
    Bravo. We disagree quite often but here I think you are spot on. kth's account of PTI from above really cuts through this case perfectly. Whether or not these guys committed a crime, there's little doubt at least some of them are grade-A jerks. Does that mean we toss them in jail? Of course not. Probably ever group or organization has their bad eggs. It was shocking to me how quickly so many were so quick to fall along the old ideological lines (like jimcee, summarizing D. Brooks' piece above) instead of showing patience. To their credit, the mods of TL were able to keep a level head, avoid rhetoric and take the public accounts as they came.

    Baltimore Mom, I have presented the defense side of the Tom DeLay, Scooter Libby and Jack Abramoff cases. I have never opined they are guilty. I do criticize "purchased testimony" -- those who cooperate with the Government in exchange for leniency in their own cases, because I believe it is suspect. I believe Karl Rove has given purchased testimony. We know that Jack Abramoff has. Therefore, they are no longer citizens accused but citizen accusers. Scooter Libby, for as long as he fights his case as opposed to cooperating and selling out someone else, will get fair treatment on TalkLeft. And no blog has criticized the Moussaoui prosecution more than this one. Same for John Walker Lindh. That dog won't hunt here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#20)
    by Lora on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 09:25:51 PM EST
    There's still the little matter of the rape exam, and the source who reported the dancer hysterical for hours at the hospital. Granted that is not corroborated, but there is still no explanation of those significant injuries, consistent with rape, other than, well, rape.

    Lora:
    Granted that is not corroborated, but there is still no explanation of those significant injuries, consistent with rape, other than, well, rape.
    So? How do you make the leap from uncorroborated injuries, or even corrobrated injuries consistent with rape, to any conclusion more specific than this: There is some level of probability that a rape occurred. The only way you can go from that knowledge to a conclusion that one of the Duke students is guilty is to make a lot of assumptions that are completely unsupported by tested facts. If you insist on making such assumptions, all you are doing is making clear your prejudice.

    "Consistent with" does not even mean a probability. It means "might have been." It also means "might not have been."

    If a rightwinger can chime in-- the thing i like about this site is that it is a refreshing and intelligent change from the lynch-mob shoutfests on cable.

    the thing i like about this site is that it is a refreshing and intelligent change from the lynch-mob shoutfests on cable.
    NOT REALLY. (However, some of the posters here seem to know more about the published 'facts' of this case than the majority of those cable 'talking heads'.)

    TL: I have a deree in Statistics, so my use of the word probability is technically correct; the word is not synonymous with the colloquial sense of 'likely', in which 'likely' is understood to mean 'more likely than unlikely'. A probability is a measure of a level of uncertainty. That level can take any value between 0 and 1, where (colloquially) 1 means that the proposition in question is certainly true and 0 means it's certainly not true. So my statement -- There is some level of probability that a rape occurred -- is effectively a truism, since that level could be 0.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#26)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 11:26:43 PM EST
    "Perhaps this case had the demographics that incite certain folks with an idealogical axe to grind." If this was a black streetwalker who had charged a gang rape by a bunch of homeless guys even if they were white, no one would care much one way or the other whether she was right or wrong in her accusations. But we care about the characters in the Duke rape drama because we identify with them or against them on the basis of class, gender and race, and our resulting political persuasion. I've noticed that politically conservative white males tend to strongly defend the Duke players. I'm guessing because they see this as an attack on their own kind, by blacks and females and pc liberals. These are the same guys who lambast the black Cynthia McKinney for allegedly hitting a policeman and hope that she will be charged. These are law and order types who now pick up the ACLU mantle of defendant's rights. But they revert to type when they degrade the accuser as a whore, liar and drunk, while ignoring the drunken, aggressive, racist and dishonest behavior of the athletes. On the other hand you have the female blogs who have taken up the cause of the female accuser. They are biased in the opposite manner.

    chew2, your post does not draw any conclusions, but it certainly contains the implication that we all take up positions based on whether or not we identify with one or other of the parties in a case. This implication, intended or otherwise, deserves to be disputed, because it lowers us all to the level exhibited by despicable TV commentators like Nancy Grace, who -- radiating anger and spewing vitriol in the cause of 'victim's rights' -- apparently never met an accused person that she didn't hate instantly. That kind of prejudice is plainly not present in this site's position, nor that of many of the posters here.

    What bothers me is that so early in the investigation, not yet even a defendant named or a trial scheduled, there is a attorney trying to pollute the jury pool. Those comments are not illegal not unethical, but are certainly wrong and not fair. The DA, we have to presume is still doing the public's job. The DA's office cannot counterattack. What the defense attorney is trying to influence is public opinion against even bringing this to a Grand Jury because the DA is an elected officeholder and then to influence those who will or are already part of that Grand Jury.

    Cymro, "That kind of prejudice is plainly not present in this site's position, nor that of many of the posters here." Nancy Grace isn't actually someone I am very familiar with, but from your description of her as someone who "never met an accused person she didn't instantly hate", she sounds as if she is exhibiting precisely the "class" of prejudice that is present in this site's "position", whereby the accusations of alleged victims are summarily dismissed. Aren't they just yins and yangs of each other. More strikingly, it's not clear that TL and NG's biases are substantially different in kind from the biases based on self-identification that chew2 senses drive the presumptions of the all male white pro-frat-boy community. Is it an accident that the group that Nancy Grace identifies with is the Prosecutors, while TL's "group" is the Defense Attorneys? What makes this new form of bigotry an improvement? Don't get me wrong. I'm all for back-patting under the right circumstances. I just don't see group identification as a heuristic worthy of pursuing. Who cares where an argument comes from, so long as it has substance? The concept of justice as a team sport complete with cheerleaders is, at heart, a bad one, and the fact that this website promotes that is, at heart, a bad thing.

    Chew2, Character knows no colors. Be realistic, the stipper/escort lacks character. Her profession is notorious for selling their bodies. She has a criminal history of grand theft auto and violence. She's an unwed mother of 2 children. As to the students credibility. They are students at one of the most prestigious colleges in America. There's too much to lose if found to have committed a serious crime. Before this incident, a few have had minor citations for drinking. This is expected behavior from most college students. Notice how I made no mention of anyone's color in my descriptions of their character. Why is it surprising that she would file a false claim rape? She probably sells her body and using it in this fashion is not uncommon. Simply put, this case reeks of a stripper trying to get even for a dispute over getting paid. In a case of she said he said, when you have no other evidence of a crime, all you have left is character. Sans evidence, the prosecutor has a huge mountain to climb to prove a sexual assualt occured beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Spyderman, You wrote: "In a case of she said he said, when you have no other evidence of a crime, all you have left is character." Oh, I don't know. There's always the question of whether the statements are intrinsically credible. For instance, take your post. Without the slightest idea where you come from, or whether you have a criminal history, I can make judgments about your intellectual abilities. You seem to think selling sex involves a lower degree of character than buying sex, for example. You find importance in the Duke students attending college, but make no note of the fact that the dancer attends college, works, and has children to raise. One doesn't need a whole lot more than your words to make clear judgements about you... and to be convinced that these judgments are true beyond a reasonable doubt.

    PB, Nancy Grace isn't actually someone I am very familiar with, but from your description of her as someone who "never met an accused person she didn't instantly hate", she sounds as if she is exhibiting precisely the "class" of prejudice that is present in this site's "position", whereby the accusations of alleged victims are summarily dismissed. Aren't they just yins and yangs of each other. No, they are not. Belief in a vigourous defense is not the opposite of instantly hating the accused. Vigourously defending the accused, whether guilty or innocent, is not the opposite of prosecuting the accused, whether guilty or not. Defending the innocent is commonly seen as good for society. Prosecuting the guilty is also commonly seen as good for society. Prosecuting (persecuting) the innocent is generally not useful for society and especially so if it is done with the knowledge that the accused is innocent. Defending the guilty on the other hand, while often seen as unseemly, is a noble act. Especially if one knows the accused is guilty. It is a foundation for preserving our rights under the constitution. If the accused can not get a good defense then an accusation is sufficient "proof" of guilt. So, no. Hating the accused and defending the accused are not yin and yang. Prosecuting those believed guilty based on the evidence and defending all of those accused are, I would submit, the yin and yang positions.

    Wow PB, I see you've gone to attacking the messenger when don't like the message or you can't win the argument. Instead of debating my points you attack me personally. Is that why you identify with the "alleged" victim? It's all about character, and your's is also quite lacking. Like it or not, she is a stripper/escort/a convicted criminal/unwed mother, who happens to be a student. The accused are students at one of the most prestigious universities in the nation. They've had a few minor citations for drinking. They have too much to lose to commit a violent crime. No real evidence. Case closed.

    Posted by Spyderman April 14, 2006 04:03 AM
    Chew2, Character knows no colors. Be realistic, the stipper/escort lacks character. Her profession is notorious for selling their bodies. She has a criminal history of grand theft auto and violence. She's an unwed mother of 2 children. As to the students credibility. They are students at one of the most prestigious colleges in America. There's too much to lose if found to have committed a serious crime. Before this incident, a few have had minor citations for drinking. This is expected behavior from most college students. Notice how I made no mention of anyone's color in my descriptions of their character. Why is it surprising that she would file a false claim rape? She probably sells her body and using it in this fashion is not uncommon. Simply put, this case reeks of a stripper trying to get even for a dispute over getting paid. In a case of she said he said, when you have no other evidence of a crime, all you have left is character. Sans evidence, the prosecutor has a huge mountain to climb to prove a sexual assualt occured beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Gee, spydie, ain't you mighty proud of yourself! So, ya got through a whole couple of paragraphs without once makin' reference to color, eh? Isn't that special! Too bad ya can't do it without makin' every other bigoted boner in the klan katalog. You attack the victim accusing her of every everything under the Sun while presuming to know her motives and her actions. The old she's a this, so she must be up to that, song and dance. How does he know this? Because she's a this, ya dumb cheney. And the College Kids are above and beyond reproach because they're from fine families and they've never been in trouble save the sort of "kids will be kids" stuff that is "expected behavior". Ya mean like the idiot in the white house and his brats? Character has got nothin' to do with that crew. All that means is Mommy and Daddy are rich enough to cover stuff up. Got any more BP fastballs or curves ya wanna hang? Be realistic. This administration and their supporters lack brains and character. Their polls aren't too good, either.

    Hi Spyderman, "I see you've gone to attacking the messenger when don't like the message or you can't win the argument." When did I attack the messenger? I simply noted that it is possible to form judgments about your intellectual abilities without any evidence but your statements. I didn't say what judgments I had formed. In court, this may not be a he said/she said affair anyway. The Duke guys don't have to say anything. I expect it might just be a "she said."

    mercurynews.com
    Also Thursday, police released a recording of a 911 call from a Kroger security guard who discovered the woman in a car. On the recording, one of the first officers to respond gave a police dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person. "She's breathing and appears to be fine," the officer said on the recording. "She's not in distress. She's just passed-out drunk." Police took her to Duke Medical Center, where she told medical personnel she had been raped.
    If this article is correct, why did he take her to the hospital?

    DA plans to seek indictments on Monday in Duke lacrosse case
    Kerry Sutton, an attorney for one player, said Nifong told her Thursday that he planned "to go to the grand jury with this matter on Monday."
    Another player's attorney, James "Butch" Williams, said the district attorney also may seek an indictment on a third player.
    Grand juries indict in more than 90 percent of cases presented to them, prosecutors say. The defense isn't allowed to present its case and only 12 of 18 jurors have to agree to issue indictments.
    I'm guessing Dan Flannery is one of the players she was able to ID. From the 4/6/06/search warrant:
    She stated one male identified himself as Adam, but everyone at the party was calling him Dan.
    ...
    Mr. Flannery admitted to using an alias to make the reservation to have the dancers attend the Lacrosse Team Party
    This idea didn't work out too well, it gave her reason to look at him more closely to determine if he was Dan or Adam. She was sober enough to determine the same person was being called two different names. If he used the name Adam to hired the dances, he is smoked. Also if she and/or the other dancer are able to say Dan/Adam is the player that greeted them and/or the player that came down to the car and coaxed them back inside, Jason Bissey may be to idenfiy Dan Flannery as that person. Co-captain Matt Zash is represented by Kerry Sutton. Co-captain Dan Flannery is represented by James "Butch" Williams. Joe Cheshire is representing Co-captain David Evans. Bill Thomas declined to name the team captain he is representing, but that only leaves Bret Thompson. Duh.

    If they wanted to get away with rape, they chose a victim that they could easily trash.

    but there is still no explanation of those significant injuries, consistent with rape, other than, well, rape.
    One possible explanation is consensual sex, with or without compensation. It has been reported widely that she also worked for an escort service. As a sex worker, if she was a good employee, she had sex. I'm curious what about the rape exam can differentiate rape and consensual sex. If anyone knows, I'd love to be educated. I'm also anxious, as is TL I presume, to find out more about the nature of the lineup. If there is any kind of funny business there, this case is completely shot.

    I think a lot of people are underestimating how good a witness she may be. I read she is a divorced mother of two young children, a former Navy enlistee, and a NCCU sophomore studying police psychology. Greta Van Susteren interview with her former attorney, Woody Vann The woman at the center of the Duke rape scandal has a criminal record herself. Joining us from Raleigh is the accuser's former attorney Woody Vann. Woody, the fact that this woman has a prior conviction, a run in with the law, does not mean that she wasn't raped. It doesn't mean that she was raped, but it is certainly at least an interesting piece of information. What can you tell us about her record? WOODY VANN, FMR ATTORNEY TO DUKE RAPE ACCUSER: Her record primarily consisted of an incident that occurred in June of 2002, where she was charged with larceny of a motor vehicle, speeding to elude arrest, assault with a deadly weapon on a law enforcement officer, that being a motor vehicle and driving while impaired. She eventually was indicted on three felonies, along with a misdemeanor and we reached a plea agreement to where she pled guilty to four misdemeanors, one of them being driving while impaired and she was placed on probation and was requested, directed to serve a six days active in jail and ordered to pay a substantial amount of restitution for damage to vehicles. VAN SUSTEREN: While you were representing her, was she an exotic dancer? VANN: That was one of the allegations that was made in the police report that was part of that investigation. VAN SUSTEREN: During any time that you were representing her, during any time that you know that she has been an exotic dancer, has she ever made another accusation of being sexually assaulted? VANN: No. None that I'm aware of and I think I would have heard. VAN SUSTEREN: How would you describe her? If I ran into her tonight someplace, what would I think? VANN: Very nice, very straightforward, comes from a good family. She's well spoken. She, prior to this incident in 2002 had no criminal record, had no driving record, raises her two kids, works, seems to just be a normal hard working lady.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#41)
    by Kitt on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:00:02 AM EST
    "Consistent with" does not even mean a probability. It means "might have been." It also means "might not have been
    ." Is this a legal definition? Because in my field 'consistent with' DOES mean a definite probability.

    She, prior to this incident in 2002 had no criminal record, had no driving record, raises her two kids, works, seems to just be a normal hard working lady.
    And by "works" he means strips and turns tricks for an escort service. Let's keep the facts straight. And I just love the lawyer talk:
    VAN SUSTEREN: While you were representing her, was she an exotic dancer? VANN: That was one of the allegations that was made in the police report that was part of that investigation.
    Translation: Yes Greta, she was.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#43)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:09:03 AM EST
    I read the description of the rape exam results, whatever was available, and I'm just wondering how those injuries got there if not by violent means. That's all. I don't claim to be an expert, and I understand the legal concept of "consistent with" (thank you TL) but unless you think the exam misrepresented the facts, then bruises are injuries, are they not? It's pretty hard to say that bruises don't represent injuries and force of some kind. How much can be argued, of course. If she was in the kind of pain and trauma that sources say she was, then they are all lying, including the description of her injuries of a sexual nature, or she is a masochist, or she was likely raped. Now I have stated that I believe her, but I am not trying to be prejudicial, I just don't hear a viable alternative explanation. If you have one that fits all the facts of the case as they have been presented, including the description of her injuries, let's hear it. Did I miss one? If I did, I apologize; please refresh my memory. Now, many people here are of the opinion that she was severely impaired. By definition, if a woman is impaired, she cannot give consent. So, IF she was that impaired and had sex at the time she was impaired, then she did not give consent. That means rape.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#44)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:11:06 AM EST
    sorry, should be "if she wasn't....", not "if she was" in above post.

    Spyderman posted:
    Like it or not, she is a stripper/escort/a convicted criminal/unwed mother, who happens to be a student.
    The accused are students at one of the most prestigious universities in the nation. They've had a few minor citations for drinking. They have too much to lose to commit a violent crime.
    Spyderman posted:
    Be realistic, the stipper/escort lacks character. Her profession is notorious for selling their bodies. She has a criminal history of grand theft auto and violence. She's an unwed mother of 2 children.
    As to the students credibility. They are students at one of the most prestigious colleges in America. There's too much to lose if found to have committed a serious crime. Before this incident, a few have had minor citations for drinking. This is expected behavior from most college students.
    You left out Colin Finnerty's arrest for assault. He and two of his buddies beat up a guy they were calling "gay." Nice. Your assertion that students from prestigious colleges in America do not commit serious crimes because they have too much to lose is just not true. google: gang rape univerisity (I provided links to these articles, but Talk left's anti spamming software prevents me from using more than two links - this post it only let me use one) Psychologist Chris O'Sullivan, Ph.D., of Buckness University in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, studied 26 alleged gang rapes that were documented between 1980 and 1990, and found that fraternity groups committed the highest number, followed by athletic teams. In addition, she found that "the athletes who do this are usually on a star team, not just any old team. or: gang rape team June 1989 to June 1990, at least 15 alleged gang rapes involving about 50 athletes were reported. One clue to the trigger for such an act may lie in the dynamics of the team experience itself: You don't find gang rape among tennis players or swimmers or those who participate in other solo sports. According to Bernice Sandler, Ph.D., director of the Project on the Status and Education of Women at the Association of American Colleges, it is athletes on football, basketball and hockey teams who are most prone to group rape. or: gang rape fraternity From 1983 to 1992, 119 fraternity gang rapes have been reported, thought he number is probably higher (Congressional Caucus for Women's Issues, 1992).

    Lora said:
    It's pretty hard to say that bruises don't represent injuries and force of some kind. How much can be argued, of course. If she was in the kind of pain and trauma that sources say she was, then they are all lying, including the description of her injuries of a sexual nature, or she is a masochist, or she was likely raped.
    I wonder what kind of bruising and whatnot is part and parcel with prostitution. Also, what sources are you gathering this information from? Not that I disagree with your conclusions one bit, I'm just curious.
    By definition, if a woman is impaired, she cannot give consent. So, IF she was that impaired and had sex at the time she was impaired, then she did not give consent.
    Also, by definition a woman cannot prostitute. Related hypothetical question: if a woman is intoxicated and consents, the male can later be charged with rape. How about when an intoxicated man is coerced to having sex. Can he later file charges?

    Chase posted:
    And by "works" he means strips and turns tricks for an escort service. Let's keep the facts straight.
    Let's do keep the facts striaght. Is it a fact that she turns tricks?
    And I just love the lawyer talk: VAN SUSTEREN: While you were representing her, was she an exotic dancer? VANN: That was one of the allegations that was made in the police report that was part of that investigation. Translation: Yes Greta, she was.
    I agree it is lawyer talk and in this case kind of silly, even if he is just protecting her privacy. It is not even illegal to be employed as an exotic dancer. The allegations made against members of the lacrosse team in police reports are serious criminal allegations.

    Chase asked:
    Related hypothetical question: if a woman is intoxicated and consents, the male can later be charged with rape. How about when an intoxicated man is coerced to having sex. Can he later file charges?
    Yes.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#49)
    by Lora on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:54:07 AM EST
    Chase, I haven't gone back through to find all the sources, but most or all through links from the posts on this site I think. The description of her sexual bruising I think was from the search warrant or some related legal doc; recently a link to a news report stated a hospital source who said she was screaming and hysterical for hours at the hospital. And I think her father was attributed with saying said she was so injured she could barely walk. Unless these three sources (whoever did the rape exam and wrote the report, her father, and the hospital source) are made up, severely mistaken, or all lying, it just seems to me that rape is the most likely explanation.

    I just don't hear a viable alternative explanation. If you have one that fits all the facts of the case as they have been presented, including the description of her injuries, let's hear it. Did I miss one? If I did, I apologize; please refresh my memory.
    It is quite possible that this woman got the bruises before she showed up at the party. Maybe it was rape, or maybe is consentual. But the players have said that she was drunk when she showed up at the party. She even passed out at the party. If she was drunk when she showed up at the party, then that explains leaving her things at the party. She is an escort/stripper and is most likely a prostitute also. Just being honest, and her business is not one that is very honest. It does not mean she is a liar, but it does mean that crazy things happen in this business. If she had a scuffle or a bad engagement with one of her tricks, earlier that evening, then it is likely that she coould of tried to blame that on the players. Also she has shown that she is not so honest at what she does. The incident to me that happened in 2002, shows me that she often tries to get away with the money from her clients without performing her job. This woman has many holes to fill in her story.

    Unless these three sources (whoever did the rape exam and wrote the report, her father, and the hospital source) are made up, severely mistaken, or all lying, it just seems to me that rape is the most likely explanation.
    Given the confusion thus far, that's a valid conclusion to draw. imho:
    Let's do keep the facts striaght. Is it a fact that she turns tricks?
    If she was an escort, as has been reported, than she did turn tricks. We can play semantic games, but escort is code for prostitute. Also, re: a male alleging rape... I know I've heard of things like this coming up before, but do you think it's realistic? Off the top of your head, do you know of any cases of this happening? Do you think some special interest groups (such as women's groups) would support charging a female rapist?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#52)
    by chew2 on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:39:12 AM EST
    "It's not personal. If this case were resolved in favor of the players, the host of this site could just as quickly defend the woman in this case from a charge of filing a false police report." I doubt it. She's sided with the Duke lacrosse players in this dispute. TL said this: "So was it racial slurs and a phyiscal fight over returning the money....or was there also a rape, as the accuser describes? I'm hoping it was the former and if it was, the dancers should be charged with filing a false report."

    Chase posted:
    Also, re: a male alleging rape... I know I've heard of things like this coming up before, but do you think it's realistic? Off the top of your head, do you know of any cases of this happening?
    I recall a case of a woman charged and convicted of performing oral sex on a man while he was asleep. He awoke to her committing the act. I don't recall if he was intoxicated or not.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#54)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 10:10:15 AM EST
    Chew2, Another point missed. IMHO TL is hoping that a rape was not committed at all. It matters not by whom. Filing a false police report is heavy stuff, especially about rape. But it's not a violent crime. What the heck kind of personal motivation would the host of this site have to take sides? She could have just as easily sided with the accusers as victims of a sexual assault. Please explain why she did not (I can't wait to hear this!).

    If she was an escort, as has been reported, than she did turn tricks. We can play semantic games, but escort is code for prostitute.
    Chase, You are the one that that posted about keeping the facts straight:
    And by "works" he means strips and turns tricks for an escort service. Let's keep the facts straight.
    It is not a fact that all escorts are prostitutes. You are wrong.

    Indeed, imho, there is so much opinion and so few actual facts in this case, let's do try to keep the facts straight.
    The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week. "It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.
    Have any opinion that floats your boat about her sexual assault claim, but accept the fact that she is (or, hopefully, was) a hooker.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 10:27:26 AM EST
    accept the fact that she is (or, hopefully, was) a hooker.
    Sure, I'll accept it, at least as a strong possibility. Have you accepted the fact that this has zero relevance to the case?

    Long ago, glanton, long ago.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 10:33:56 AM EST
    I thought I remembered you acknowledging as much, suo, but couldn't find it. Good deal. So, that being established, don't you think it's a pretty sad commentary on us as a whole that her past keeps coming up in every conversation about the case, whether the conversations involve lawyers for the accused, the MSM, criminal justice bloggers, or water cooler shmos? Did I say sad commentary? Actually, it reveals a cultural hostility towards women. Sad doesn't quite cover it, somehow.

    I don't think bring up her past reflects a "cultural hostility toward women." In fact, I won't even accept there is such a thing. There may be individuals while ill-formed prejudices but to claim there is a cultural condition? Of course her past isn't an excuse for rape or assault. I don't think anyone (here or elsewhere) has as much as suggested it does. Where I think its relevant is how her actions, evidenced by her past, led her to be at that house that night, her reason for being there, etc. It might even provide some insight into how the observed injuries might (might!!) have occurred.

    I'm with you glanton. I think there is a lot of "cultural hotility" in evidence here - on both sides.

    "hotility." Maybe I was thinking of Jessica Alba...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#63)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 10:58:46 AM EST
    I don't think bring up her past reflects a "cultural hostility toward women." In fact, I won't even accept there is such a thing.
    Of course you don't think, won't accept, suich things, Chase. We've been reading your posts. We get it.
    but to claim there is a cultural condition?
    When every single rape case that makes the news winds up turning into a discussion about the accuser's sexual ethos, then it kinda makes you wonder if all the ones that don't make the news also revolve around such "considerations." But then, one needn't wonder. It's pretty clear that many victims will not report what happened to them, for fear of what will happen to them in the courtroom.
    It might even provide some insight into how the observed injuries might (might!!) have occurred.
    Yeah. That's why Americans focus so much on the sexual conduct of those who report rape. Right. suo: I wouldn't equate the hostility "both sides" endure so easily as you do. Hostility towards rich white kids manifests itself in a little bad press now and gain, just a bump on the road. Hostility towards women who allege rape translates into unreported rape.

    Why is sexual history out of bounds here? Again, it doesn't excuse rape or assault but why is it so taboo to talk about? It is particularly relevant when an accuser's promiscuity and "sexual ethos" put her in situations that lead to assault. Please don't read that as an excuse (I'm sure it will be...) Surely there are rapes that go unreported, and not only for the reasons you mention. I'm also interested in how many "rapes" are reported each year that weren't, in fact, rapes--situations where consent was fully granted, then, for fear of reputation, etc, the next day, ex post facto, the consent was repealed.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#65)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:17:09 AM EST
    It is particularly relevant when an accuser's promiscuity and "sexual ethos" put her in situations that lead to assault. Please don't read that as an excuse (I'm sure it will be...)
    If you're not forwarding it as an excuse, then how exactly is it "relevant"? I tell you, there is no ambiguity involved when a woman says 'no.' I don't care what she did, or who she did it with only seconds before saying 'no.' At that point the music must stop. Do you not understand the rhetorical power of the phrase, "put herself in those situations"? If you don't then the density is par the course for American consciousness.

    sarcastic unnamed one posted:
    Have any opinion that floats your boat about her sexual assault claim, but accept the fact that she is (or, hopefully, was) a hooker.
    That is not a fact that has been established. Assumptions should not be stated as facts.

    Do you not understand the rhetorical power of the phrase, "put herself in those situations"?
    Do you not understand the reality of the phrase? If I want to avoid fights, I should not go to bars with shady characters. It doesn't mean they are excused when I'm jumped, nor does it mean I'm somehow at fault. I just should probably have known better than to go there in the first place. And if frequent the bar, I definitely should have known better after seeing what happens to other patrons at the hands of the unsavory folk. The reality is that if you are employed in a business that trades money for sex (from stripping to prostitution) you are presenting yourself as a sexual object. That doesn't mean the guests at the strip club can molest you. It does mean you are putting yourself in a higher-than-average risk of being the victim of assault. Further, and more importantly, if you are a prostitute, and engage in commercial sex on a regular basis, the likelihood of bruising, as a result of your business transaction, is greater.

    The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week. "It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.
    No assumptions, imho. Unless you are challenging the credibility of the reporter? If you're just messing around on a blog here, that's one thing. If you are truly unwilling to accept her self-admitted occupation, that speaks volumes.
    I wouldn't equate the hostility "both sides" endure so easily as you do.
    glanton, I'm not going to debate the relative values of different "cultural hostilities," just pointing out that they exist.

    And, I failed to note, of course "no" means no. In all circumstances, in all languages including body language. There is no ambiguity there, nor has anyone suggested there is.

    TalkLeft and others, suppose you are one of the jurors. What kind of evidence would convince you that the rape did not happen, that it could be ruled out? Because it appears that whatever evidence there is that support the players' story is dismissed by DA and many others. No DNA - they used condoms, DNA doesn't mean much anyway. Photographs - could be manipulated. 911 call - it doesn't matter. Inconsistencies in her and other woman's story - it also doesn't matter. And so on. I mean, what kind of evidence there sould be to prove they didn' t do it? And do they have to prove anything anyway? It appears if one is accused, there is no way to clear one's name. If you didn't do such type of crime, what kind of evidence you might have? Or DA has to solidly prove they did it? Right now he has nothing.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#71)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:44:14 AM EST
    It does mean you are putting yourself in a higher-than-average risk of being the victim of assault.
    As far as something to bring up when trying to convince your female friend or daughter not to go into that business, and to avoid darkened streets at three o'clock in the morning, this is a perfectly understandable comment. But in terms of investigating and/or commenting on an actual rape case, I still see no relevance whatever, and I don't see it, because it's not there. Speaking of it in these contexts is where the term "blaming the victim" finds itself most applicable indeed. All that matters here is whether her allegations are true. That's it. And if TL and the other posters here had stuck to that simple rubric, I wouldn't have posted at all. But nobody seems willing to stick to that and that only, when it comes to determining guilt or innocence re rapre. Heck, even on a liberal blog, when it comes to rape, these reptilian phenomenon manage to seep into the conversation. TL is devoted to ensuring that the accused get a fair shake, and this is a noble, perhaps the noblest, cause in the country at a moment when our own government is tossing people in the slammer, and wiretapping them, based on little more than a hunch and a tickle. And so I greatly appreciate what Jeralyn does. But even she, when a rape case comes calling, indulges in the cultural tendency to stray away from the nuts and bolts of whether the rape occured. suo: Your unwillingness to look at the huge difference between two things you throw in one category does not surprise me. We see this all the time in the rhetoric of the Right. But hostile attitudes towards the LaCrosse team, and hostile attitudes towards the accuser, have all kinds of important distinctions. I t is insulting to say well, rape victims have it tough and all, what with their sexualities being put under a microscope and their motives impugned: But hey, those Dookies have it rough, too. Yes, they've endured much, those poor boys. They've had to deal with a little bad press and a milquetoast investigation, and even as they go on untarnished in any way, and live their lives, they will never be able to shake the spectre of what people like glanton once said about them. How traumatic. Blech.

    Stay alert glanton, and stay with Kos.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#73)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:51:55 AM EST
    Nice, suo. I put an idea to you, and you dismiss it in a way that you think is cute. Here's a clue that you can take or leave: I have never visited Kos before. I rarely look at any "liberal" websites (I put it in quotes because for all I know, Kos may be "liberal" in the same sense that CNN or is "liberal" to you people). On the other hand, I visit Right Sites frequently. One fringe benefit of this is catching people like you passing off TP's as your own thoughts. But anyway, it would have been very simple to admit that what this woman has gone through is not comparable to what the LaCrosse players have dealt with. Any nitwit can see it. Why do you so cavalierly throw them into the same category? (Other than, because you can, that is)

    glaton: I've been to Kos before and I watch CNN on a daily basis (best news cable network out there) and trust me, Kos is liberal. This caught my attention:
    But anyway, it would have been very simple to admit that what this woman has gone through is not comparable to what the LaCrosse players have dealt with.
    What will you say, if (!!) in a week or two she comes forward and says, "I made this up. I was wasted, I couldn't perform but I didn't want to give my money back. I threatened to accuse them of rape unless they let me leave with it. When they were verbally nasty to me, I called the cops." Will you reverse your position?

    I put an idea to you, and you dismiss it in a way that you think is cute.
    Good Lord, now you're a victim?! Re-read your previous post, my response to was perfectly in line.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#76)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:05:09 PM EST
    Chase, If she does as you hypothesize, then I will say well that clears that up, now we know they're innocent of sexually assaulting her. What I won't do is say, well, we should have known she was lying since she's a stripper or since she's had lots of sex before, or whatever the red herring du joure happens to be. Please, try to understand the difference. A white woman from Nebraska is just as capable of telling the truth, and of lying, as an African-American stripper in Durham. Rather than worry about their past we should focus only on whether their allegations are true. We owe that to all parties.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#77)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:09:37 PM EST
    suo: "Victim" is a tad harsh. I realize that I snarked in the previous post, and apologize for that. But I didn't claim to be a "victim," and you know it. The snark was borne of frustration, should have been handled a different way. I'll try again, on the heels of an added apology for the snarks imbued in my followup post. Here goes. sarcastic unnamed one: Why won't you acknowledge the clear and qualitative difference between what the woman has gone through and what the Dookies have gone through from the very beginning of this case? Isn't it the same as acknowleding rain on a rainy day? Why do you blithely throw them together and be done with it? What is the motive?

    Excuse me for not being more clear. I meant: if my silly hypothetical were to magically come true, would you be willing to take back your claim that she has gone through more than them?

    Hi thesoapleft You wrote: "Prosecuting (persecuting) the innocent is generally not useful for society and especially so if it is done with the knowledge that the accused is innocent. Defending the guilty on the other hand, while often seen as unseemly, is a noble act. Especially if one knows the accused is guilty. It is a foundation for preserving our rights under the constitution." Defending the rights of the guilty is noble, and is the duty of defense attorneys and prosecutors alike. But that's not what we're talking about here. A lawyer who actually knows his client is guilty but presents him as innocent is deceiving the court and abusing the public trust. There's nothing noble about it. It is the moral equivalent of a Prosecutor knowingly prosecuting an innocent person. We should keep in mind that when we compare TL and NG, we aren't comparing Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys. We are comparing media shills. Nancy Grace is not a public servant when she appears on tv shows, and Talkleft has no client-attorney relationship with the people she defends here. So we're really just comparing ideological cheerleaders. Much of the nobility is lost in the process.

    But anyway, it would have been very simple to admit that what this woman has gone through is not comparable to what the LaCrosse players have dealt with.
    Well, maybe we should develop a hierarchy of "badness:" From most bad to least bad: -To be raped. -To be falsely accused of rape and the resulting national and international hoopla aimed at you. -To be robbed and racially insulted. She wasn't raped, imo. Therefore, imo, the "baddest" thing that happened was she falsely accused the guys of rape. If she was raped, then that's something altogether different.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#81)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:17:21 PM EST
    Chase, First of all I hope you understand the point I made in my response. It is crucial to where I am coming from. Secondly, no, I will not say that the Dookies have gone through more, because at this moment as we speak, everything's in doubt and she's been impugned in just about every imaginable way. That is unacceptable. Her turning out "magically" to be lying will not fix our cultural predilictions to pounce all over women who cry rape, especially women who have a sexually-charged profile of some kind. What you don't get is that what this particular woman is going through, how she's being talked about, goes well beyond this case. Our overall response to the Dookie incident reinforces dangerous trends by perpetuating them. Our overall response reminds rape victims everywhere: think twice before you come forward, because when everything was in doubt, from the beginning even the liberals were all over this woman.

    A little message to those who have made up their minds on this case one way or the other: If you are relying on news reports as the basis of your opinion (and obviously you are) you are relying upon inaccurate information. Anyone who has dealt with any high profile legal proceeding, criminal or civil, knows that media reports are, without fail, almost always inaccurate. On this blog and others, there are very strong opinions expressed and no one has even been charged, much less any evidence presented which is subject to cross examination. Any attorney knows that evidence may look like something on first blush, but upon close scrutiny may end up looking totally different. I think a lot of people are getting awfully worked up based upon essentially, nothing.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#83)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:23:47 PM EST
    suo: I understand. Thank you for elaborating. That there are so many "opinions" among us, regarding innocence or guilt, is very strange indeed. I have tried hard to repeat the fact that I have no idea whatever as to what happened. All we have to go on are some press conferences and a cacophony of reminders, from conservatives and liberals alike, that the accuser aint Dorothy from Kansas. And of course the press conferences have been dominated by defense attorneys telling us how to interpret DNA tests. I just don't see any reason to form an opinion at this juncture. Finally, the manner in which most of the media (Sports Illustrated being a notable and refreshing exception!) has responded to this is terrible, and whether she turns out to be telling the truth or not won't change that. Again, sorry about the snarks. I am aware that you are no ideological Rightie, and said something to the opposite effect anyway. I am trying to better on TL, especially with you and a couple of others, because when we are doing well we have good conversation.

    Our overall response reminds rape victims everywhere: think twice before you come forward, because when everything was in doubt, from the beginning even the liberals were all over this woman.
    But if it turns out that this is a false accusation, then how do we "reinforce" to women everywhere, "Don't do that!"?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#85)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:31:20 PM EST
    But if it turns out that this is a false accusation, then how do we "reinforce" to women everywhere, "Don't do that!"?
    Do you really think we have a national imperative in this regard?

    Thanks for the words, g-man.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#87)
    by azbballfan on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:37:34 PM EST
    The defense is doing an excellent job of keeping the story in the press via a series of press releases. It doesn't seem that the DA is taking the bait on releasing evidence to respond to defense attorney's releases. Once charges are made, the DA will need to release more information to the defense attorneys. They will continue to gather evidence to make thier case. The DA is also doing a good job of not bowing to the media pressure to drop the case.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#88)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:42:06 PM EST
    Also, Chase,even if this were some kind of rampant problem in need of redress, what does the need to reinforce the terribleness of falsely alleging rape have to do with a given accuser's sexual ethos?

    sarcastic unnamed one quoted the article:
    The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.
    "It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.
    and then suo commented:
    No assumptions, imho. Unless you are challenging the credibility of the reporter?
    If you're just messing around on a blog here, that's one thing. If you are truly unwilling to accept her self-admitted occupation, that speaks volumes.
    I am not challenging the credibility of the reporter. I am not messing around on a blog. I am not playing a game of semantics. I'm just trying to keep the facts straight. Her self admitted occupation in the above article is that of an escort. If you hadn't used the "F" word, I would have no objection to your post:
    Have any opinion that floats your boat about her sexual assault claim, but accept the fact that she is (or, hopefully, was) a hooker.
    If we didn't make assumptions when discussing this case, we wouldn't have much to talk about. If you would have said, "You'd have to be dumb as dirt to not think she was being paid to have sex on these dates," I would not have objected. You would not be stating it a fact, but as your opinion. How about this: working for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week is "consistent with" being a hooker? Which, according to TalkLeft, means she "might have been" working as a hooker and it also means "might not have been" working as a hooker.

    glanton: I feel it's safe to assume that if under-reported rapes are as rampant as you allege they are, so are false accusations of rape. Among my friends, I know 2 that dealt with this (until the female retracted) as well as one female friend that made a false accusation. From this, I extrapolate...

    imho, "one-on-one dates" by an "escort" means hooking, just like "getting laid" means "having sex." Whether you accept it or not.

    suo, Escorts can have "one on one" dates without having any kind of sex. This is a fact.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#93)
    by glanton on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 01:47:05 PM EST
    I feel it's safe to assume that if under-reported rapes are as rampant as you allege they are, so are false accusations of rape
    That's quite a shwarping of logic, there, Chase. One in no way follows from the other. We have seen no eviodence whatever of some epidemic of false rape allegations in our culture, and you know it. And again, if the allegation is false, that has nothing to do with the relevance of the woman's sexual "profile," or whatever we want to call it. It only means its a lie. Hopefully you understand that virgins are just as capable of lying, and of telling the truth, as sexually active women. Throughout this conversation, Chase, you have been hedging. You want to maintain that a woman sexual "record" is fair game in a rape case, but you also seem to know that the positionm isn't defensible except through obfuscation, subject-switching, and the like. But don't fret too much, my friend. The history of this country and its current climate is with you. You can go to bed secure in the knowledge that if a woman comes forward with a rape charge, even the most liberal segments of this soceity are going to do everything possible to dredge up everything sexual she's ever done. Just because it isn't defensible through logic doesn't mean you can't do it, after all. Just look at our invasion of Iraq, for example.

    imho: Sure escorts can have 'one-on-ones' without sex. Just as I can play in highway traffic without being hit. Both are possible; neither is likely. and glanton: You continue to intentionally misrepresent my argument. I'm not dismissing her outright because of her sexual history. I believe, unlike you, that it is worth noting. If she was hooking, she has an interest in misrepresenting why she was there. Self-preservation at its finest.

    Escorts can have "one on one" dates without having any kind of sex.
    We're not talking about "escorts" we're talking about her. Just like "getting laid" means "having sex," when she talked about doing "one-on-one" dates she meant hooking.

    Chase posted: Sure escorts can have 'one-on-ones' without sex. Just as I can play in highway traffic without being hit. Both are possible; neither is likely. So you agree with me. suo:
    We're not talking about "escorts" we're talking about her. Just like "getting laid" means "having sex," when she talked about doing "one-on-one" dates she meant hooking.
    Whether you accept it or not - we don't know that.

    Actually, we do know that, you just won't accept it. I think we've wasted enough bandwidth on this one.

    suo posted:
    I think we've wasted enough bandwidth on this one.
    Me too. All because you won't admit that though we can have opinions on whether or not she was admitting to trading sex for money on these dates, we don't know it.

    Hey charliedontsurf1, Sorry, but I'm not a Republican. Why R you so po'd? Are you upset that character is going to be a factor IF this case goes to court? Perhaps you'd like to explain why character shouldn't a factor? If there are no witnesses, if there's no evidence, why isn't character important? Women of ill repute have been known to cry "rape" when they don't get paid for their services. The stripper/escort was passed out blind drunk in someone's car at the Kroger. Perhaps she imagined what happened? It's likely that she was on a "date" with a john that attacked her, and roughed her up, before she showed up at the Lacrosse house? Perhaps her boyfriend had a hand in her condition? If the pics of her at the party are authentic, it seems that something happened to this person before she arrived at the Lacrosse party. Where's the DNA. The warrant stated she was clawing at the arm of one of the players that attacked her. Oops, no DNA under he fingernails. Oops, no DNA in her mouth, butt, or vag. Can you say Tawana Brawley?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Case : Officer Says Accuser Nee (none / 0) (#101)
    by svolich on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:01:14 PM EST
    Suddenly there's the claim that 75% of rapes don't leave any DNA. Has anyone ever heard that one before? Shaking someone's hand leaves enough DNA behind to test for. Has there been ANY explanation as to why she was sitting in a stranger's car in the Kroeger's parking lot? Did Dancer #2 kick her out of the car? If she was impared to the point that she couldn't concent to sex, why would anyone choke her? And how would she remember how many and what color the rapists (who didn't touch her in any way) were? I've served on a grand jury. I wouldn't have voted for a bill based on what I've read about this one.

    Svolich, Of course some hawks here would like to convict the Lacrosse team without ANY evidence. I guess they work on the presumption of guilt rather than the presumption of innocence. Of course, that never stopped an overzealous prosecutor.

    Svolich wrote: "I've served on a grand jury. I wouldn't have voted for a bill based on what I've read about this one." Most of what you've read won't be presented to the grand jurors, I would think. Grand jurors decide whether there is a fair question to be resolved, that's all, and they do it based on the Prosecution's case. Evidence with-held by the defense, such as the crime scene photographs, and claims about how impaired the victim was, and arguments over whether DNA is left behind everytime there is a handshake, won't enter into it, unless the grand jurors come with preconceived notions about such things.